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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,145 Member Since:23/01/2011

#22 [url]

Jan 23 17 10:59 AM

jesse decarlo wrote:
I agree with what you guys are saying, and I also think emulated distortion is generally crappy, and the more of it there is the worse it sounds...

I am generally not 'that guy' when it comes to f*cking up the sound of something, although I am sometimes asked to do so.  One of the very hardest things to do in the box for me is to screw with a sound in a 'sound designer-y' way and be happy with it.  Years ago, in a post, someone made the point that one of the very most difficult things to do with a computer is to accomplish something that behaves non-linearly.  

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Blue Note

Tin Man

Posts: 35 Member Since:22/01/2017

#23 [url]

Jan 23 17 7:45 PM

Re: Chiba-sensei's LT

There are a few hit-job videos and reviews from some geniuses who tried out a broken LT... ("drop" ship, much?)   Indeed, if the lasers are out of calibration, or if one fails to clean his records reasonably when dusty, pickup will suffer - but on clean, black vinyl pressings, the LT doesn't miss a wiggle and, best of all, can't scratch the grooves...  

From Bill Gaw:  "...There is significantly less background noise, both from the loss of groove hiss and amplification noise, thus more ambience and air is discernible. Alas, the increased noise from clicks and pops can be disconcerting. Thus, pristine records will sound pristine and less than pristine records may be more difficult to listen to. Turning on the noise control, while reducing the clicks, will deaden musical transients that are about as sharp as I have ever heard from vinyl.
"The ELP picks up every bit of musical information in the groove. The most difficult information for a pickup system to obtain is the micro-information including the air around the instruments, the ambience of the hall, and the high frequency overtones of the instruments that are all captured on the smallest of the groove modulations. This is the ELP's major strength as the laser has a significantly smaller contact area than anything except those needles with a super fine line. The laser also reacts at the speed of light to the modulation changes, as it has no inertia. Another benefit is that it has the advantage of no force on the groove yielding no chance of damage..."

 Listen to the nice-sounding (and "doing-no-harm") playback of even a digital capture on ELP's YouTube clip.  The LT sounds great.

[url]
(Jump ahead to 7:13 for vinyl audition.)

Prior art did lead to this machine, but this isn't your uncle's Finial. The ELP's development wasn't completed until 1997.  These are 5-laser players that benefit from not being "mounted to a pivot point," since that always creates mis-tracking for most of the effective radius of a side.  The laser pickups don't need to touch the groove:  two of the five lasers are devoted to scanning the two groove walls so that the two pickup lasers are always pin-pointed over either side of the centerline.    The fitth laser adjusts depth for less than ideally-flat pressings.  The depth of scanning is also adjustable to avoid previously-marred areas of stylus contact for pressings previously played on less-than-ideal "manglers"..    It must be used intelligently, but results (on non-damaged examples) are laudable.
 

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gold

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,517 Member Since:27/01/2011

#25 [url]

Jan 23 17 9:52 PM

Blue Note wrote:
From Bill Gaw:  "...There is significantly less background noise, both from the loss of groove hiss and amplification noise, thus more ambience and air is discernible. Alas, the increased noise from clicks and pops can be disconcerting. Thus, pristine records will sound pristine and less than pristine records may be more difficult to listen to.

 These are 5-laser players that benefit from not being "mounted to a pivot point," since that always creates mis-tracking for most of the effective radius of a side. 
 

The above is all I meant. Usually the records that could benefit most from not being touched are the ones that benefit the least from this TT. Probably great for home listening but not particularly useful for transfers and restoration.

I was referencing the device at the top of the page when I said it can't sound good because it doesn't rotate around a pivot point. I have nothing against linear tracking. The above device isn't anchored in any way.
 

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Cirrus

Tin Man

Posts: 46 Member Since:08/12/2014

#26 [url]

Jan 24 17 7:11 AM

morespaceecho wrote:are there any saturation/distortion plugs that anyone actually likes? 


I don't know any better since ITB is all I have significant experience with, but I've been impressed with the Kush transformer plugins - Omega A and N. Definitely recommend trying them.

With all these kind of plugs, the cons/weaknesses of each plug seem to stack up faster than the supposed benefits as you deploy them across a mix, to my ears. So while I'll use Waves NLS or J37 or Kush transformers or the drive knob on MJUC or SDRR or IK Multimedia's Neve EQs with preamp modelling etc and enjoy the sound, the journey for me has been learning where to deploy them most effectively to get the mix where I want it and spare the tracks that don't need extra grit.

A parallel that may or may not make sense to anyone else is how I feel about guitar overdrive pedals vs amp distortion. With amp distortion, it feels like you can play loads of different riffs, styles, use your playing to change the feel of the sound etc - go from clean to edge of breakup to saturated just by how hard you play, where and how you hit the strings. With pedal distortion, the sound can be incredible for one song and fall totally flat on the next. I think that's why guys who use amp distortion tend to be happy to use one core sound that sees them through a whole set, vs guys who use pedal distortion that need 5 or 6 different distortion boxes to cover the same sonic ground? So I wonder if it's the same with ITB distortion emulation. It can work really well. Until it doesn't.

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Blue Note

Tin Man

Posts: 35 Member Since:22/01/2017

#27 [url]

Jan 25 17 5:19 AM

...it doesn't rotate around a pivot point. I have nothing against linear tracking. The above device isn't anchored in any way.
 



Does it not behave as if anchored well enough to keep the two wall edge lasers trained? The playback from the linked video, unless faked, is seamless and without appreciable "wow."
I'm not buying one. I don't mind the grind. But if one could justify the cost, having a repro machine that cant hurt the art has got to be better than any that will, even if slightly, since those surfaces we love are irrevocable. If it sounds at all, I'm like listening...

- Bløn Øte

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seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,639 Member Since:26/01/2011

#28 [url]

Jan 25 17 9:06 AM

I guess it invites the question is what we like about records the storage medium, the playback hardware, or the combination? Is a flawless record being played by a laser stylus different from a CD? I don't have answers.

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#29 [url]

Jan 25 17 1:06 PM

seth wrote:
I guess it invites the question is what we like about records the storage medium, the playback hardware, or the combination? Is a flawless record being played by a laser stylus different from a CD? I don't have answers.

I always thought it was the *music*...  Hmmm....

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gold

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,517 Member Since:27/01/2011

#30 [url]

Jan 25 17 1:45 PM

Blue Note wrote:

Does it not behave as if anchored well enough to keep the two wall edge lasers trained?


 

I don't know. I was talking about the playback device at the start of the thread that you just drop on the record.

The ancients were not dumb. The vinyl record and the playback of them was pretty well tweaked out by 1960. Probably understood better than it is today. I often hear that vinyl playback and production is better than ever with all the advances in modern technology, or should be. I have yet to see or hear a concrete example. Lots of geniuses who could make it happen if they got around to it though. Hillarious.

Playing  record with a laser is not like playing a CD. You can't magically reduce the inherent noise floor or distortions of the medium. I could see the laser having less tracing distortion with a smaller "tip" than is possible with a jewel.

Last Edited By: gold Jan 25 17 2:01 PM. Edited 2 times.

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#31 [url]

Jan 25 17 2:18 PM

gold wrote:
Blue Note wrote:

Does it not behave as if anchored well enough to keep the two wall edge lasers trained?


 

I don't know. I was talking about the playback device at the start of the thread that you just drop on the record.

The ancients were not dumb. The vinyl record and the playback of them was pretty well tweaked out by 1960. Probably understood better than it is today. I often hear that vinyl playback and production is better than ever with all the advances in modern technology, or should be. I have yet to see or hear a concrete example. Lots of geniuses who could make it happen if they got around to it though. Hillarious.

Playing  record with a laser is not like playing a CD. You can't magically reduce the inherent noise floor or distortions of the medium. I could see the laser having less tracing distortion with a smaller "tip" than is possible with a jewel.
...a stylus tip will just plow through dust and debris, but a frikken laser beam will actually *read* it...

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gold

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,517 Member Since:27/01/2011

#32 [url]

Jan 25 17 2:26 PM

zmix wrote:
...a stylus tip will just plow through dust and debris, but a frikken laser beam will actually *read* it...

Yes, anytime you try to improve one aspect of vinyl playback you make something else worse. At least I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. I may be biased here because I will be promoting and selling such devices but the single biggest improvement to vinyl playback would be to change the standard interface from unbalanced to balanced. Not that I'm the first to think of it.

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,145 Member Since:23/01/2011

#33 [url]

Jan 27 17 11:41 AM

gold wrote:

 ...I often hear that vinyl playback and production is better than ever with all the advances in modern technology, or should be. I have yet to see or hear a concrete example...

At least 15 or more years ago I read a very in-depth article about how, when DuPont got out of the nitrocellulose business it significantly hurt the record business.  Working from memory, so hopefully I'll get these details correctly.  DuPont used to make very pure, high quality lacquer for the paint on automobiles.  They controlled every aspect of the operation from start to finish, including growing the cotton--the main ingredient--on the farms they owned specifically for this purpose.  When the auto industry switched to a different paint formulation, DuPont got out of the nitrocellulose business and mastering houses started to have a lot more trouble making clean, quiet master lacquers because the lacquer quality wasn't as good.  I seem to remember one guy saying sometimes he had to cut a disk as many as 6 times to not get any "streaking" (I believe he called it).  

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,406 Member Since:04/02/2011

#34 [url]

Jan 27 17 11:47 AM

makes sense.

nitrocellulose lacquer makes awful car paint, but it was indeed "the only game in town" for a long time. DuPont Duco was the trade name for their nitro lacquer, I believe.

brad allen williams

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gold

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,517 Member Since:27/01/2011

#35 [url]

Jan 27 17 12:46 PM

There also used to be lead in the PVC compund used to press records. It of course helped with lubrcation and keeping things quiet.

Apollo mixes their own lacquer from what I understand. Transco which was bought by Apollo worked with a third party for their lacquer. Apollo still has to be very careful in testing the ingredients before mixing.

Last Edited By: gold Jan 27 17 1:04 PM. Edited 1 time.

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chrisj

Gold Finger

Posts: 988 Member Since:22/02/2011

#36 [url]

Jan 27 17 1:12 PM

You know, I would be surprised if at least some of my recent free/VST dirtbox work in plugins didn't pass muster, because it's all about keeping things simple and not overprocessing, and I've known that for YEARS. This would also be why older plugins like CamelFree and the Fishes remain so beloved. It's just out of fashion not to overprocess like hell, and when they add the 'modeling gunk' as Terry observes, it just makes everything much worse.

I have Channel4, Slew, Density, Drive, Fracture, Desk, TransDesk and TubeDesk currently out for free and every single one benefits from having learned not to overcomplicate the algorithms. Admittedly some like Fracture have weirdnesses all their own… but particularly w.r.t. Channel4, Density, Drive and Desk, I would be a little shocked if NONE of them worked for this crowd. I think you just haven't tried them, but they're free now, and I know they're free of what Terry probably's referring to.

If not, it's back to the drawing board :) but really, I think I've been trying to fix these issues for you…

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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bob olhsson

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,343 Member Since:25/01/2011

#37 [url]

Jan 29 17 2:29 PM

The biggest problem with lasers besides reading the dirt is that every real world cutting system I ever saw was always calibrated to a test record on a turntable because that's how people were going to be listening and how the mastering engineers were going to check their work.

www.audiomastery.com Bob's room 615 562-4346 georgetownmasters.com Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 www.thewombforums.com

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chance

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,686 Member Since:30/01/2011

#38 [url]

Jan 29 17 4:05 PM

Anyone remember as a child ever putting a nickel or quarter on a record player's stylus arm to keep it in the record grooves? Guilty as charged

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chance

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,686 Member Since:30/01/2011

#40 [url]

Jan 29 17 8:39 PM

scullyfan wrote:
Guilty, but it was only a penny!

LOL Well, I started out with a dime, but as the sapphire stylus aged, I graduated to a penny, nickle, to a quarter. After that, the record was shot. Wouldn't even play with 2 or 3 quarters. The grooves just wore into each other

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