avatar

gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,168 Member Since:23/10/2013

#41 [url]

Mar 3 17 3:16 PM

I'm not really big on a 57 on acoustic, but in that vein, an RE50 can be cool for a lower cost dynamic choice. 635 too, as previously mentioned, pretty much the same thing. In fact they come in handy when players move around a bit, since they are omni and the proximity effect is very minimal. Less low mid muck than a 57, sounds a bit more open.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Mickeyrouse

Silverado

Posts: 135 Member Since:05/11/2015

#43 [url]

Mar 5 17 4:39 PM

I would offer these thoughts: the acoustics people tell us that a guitar is a compact, stringed, fretted version of a helmholtz resonator. The neck may resonate, but very little and at severly attenuated high frequencies compared to the body (the "box", if you will). Carbon fiber necks, being more dense, will likely resonate even less. When we hear a guitar played by someone other than ourselves, the sound we respond to is overwhelmingly the sound resonating from the top, moderately from the sides and close to nothing from the back, which is also often damped by the player's body.
Pointing a microphone at the sound hole is pointing it at a void- you will get some sound there, but it is really sound emanating from the top, and sounds different compared to the direct top sound by its off-axis nature. The idea that unadulterated string sound is found there is unsupportable, because the output of the strings is LESS there than you hear from an unamplified electric guitar. Though I haven't done it, probably a very similar sound would arise
( discounting what changes ambient acoustics may be encountered, plus any other room instruments that may be playing) if aimed a similar distance of top-to-hole behind the guitar. Mic'ing at the neck or at the hole may very well sound different, because at the neck you are really getting an off-axis sound of a narrow part (the guitar shoulders) of the top, which in turn will have less low frequency content because of the proximity of a smaller (think high frequency) part of the top. The sound hole (misleading, no?) sounds different for similar reasons, but mostly for what it's not.
Arched/carved tops record differently. Most arched tops are laminated ( a nice word for plywood?) and the glue between the layers acts as both a damper and an isolater, and for that reason often don't record well, though string condition seems to be more critical here.
True carved tops are a different breed altogether. Like Gibson L-4s, L-5's, Campellone, Benedetto, Montleone, D'Quisto, etc ( did Stradivarius have something to do with the Italian dominance?) are carved from single pieces of wood for each top and bottom. The wood has no inter-layer glue, thus no dampening or isolation, and will just be more robust sounding. Plus there is more area to the top (no sound hole) thus more resonating surface. Research has shown that the actual shapes of the f-holes act as high-frequency resonators, different f shapes (think variations in mass) resonating more or less at different frequencies.
Carved tops are labor-intensive, expensive, and are as close to arch tops as lightning is to the lightning-bug. And they record great. Shoulda bought the L-5 25 years ago for $2500.
Mic choice as always is highly subjective, but my preference has always been SDC's, because, depending on material and the particular instrument, acoustic guitar is transient-rich, and unless we're looking for something subdued and mellow, condensers are more likely to deliver those transients.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

harland

Gold Finger

Posts: 929 Member Since:05/02/2011

#44 [url]

Mar 5 17 10:22 PM

Very interesting dissertation!
I have a standard go-to method of recording a solo acoustic guitar. I just have the guitarist play what he intends to record and while he is playing, I put my best ear in every spot around him and find the sweet spots. Sometimes there is one, sometimes two or three. I make a choice as to which mic will compliment each particular sweet spot, record it and balance the levels. Recording it along with other instruments involves a bunch of additional factors.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

extrememixing

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,340 Member Since:02/02/2011

#45 [url]

Mar 6 17 8:24 AM

harland wrote:
...while he is playing, I put my best ear in every spot around him and find the sweet spots...
That could get a bit awkward if you're not careful!  

Steve

Quote    Reply   
avatar

scullyfan

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,612 Member Since:27/07/2011

#47 [url]

Mar 6 17 5:31 PM

bob olhsson wrote:
Tony Rice told me to put an 84 near the bottom of his guitar pointing up at his right hand. I've never found anything that worked as well!


​I've used a KM84 in roughly that position before and liked what I heard: Full bodied with just the right amount of articulation. I'm not sure why I went back to the 12th fret...

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Mike Rivers

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,525 Member Since:13/10/2012

#49 [url]

Mar 6 17 6:02 PM

scullyfan wrote:

bob olhsson wrote:
Tony Rice told me to put an 84 near the bottom of his guitar pointing up at his right hand. I've never found anything that worked as well!


​I've used a KM84 in roughly that position before and liked what I heard: Full bodied with just the right amount of articulation. I'm not sure why I went back to the 12th fret...

 
That's where I always miked an acoustic guitar (KM-84 as soon as I got some), from back before I ever heard of Tony Rice. Then I read somewhere that pointing the mic toward the fingerboard where the neck joins the body was the "right" place. Sometimes it was righter than pointing up toward the playing hand, sometimes it was wronger.



For a good time, call mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

Quote    Reply   
avatar

has2

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,452 Member Since:17/05/2012

#50 [url]

Mar 6 17 6:19 PM

hallams wrote:
For the 57 haters ;) ........here is a recording of my old maton using a single 57 and some lexicon reverb added to give a bit of stereo width. I think i have posted the song here before and hope you don't mind me doing so again. Some of the reverberation comes from the guitars harmonic overtones etc as the instrument has a lively sound. It may confirm a dislike of the humble 57 or might offer some hope. Of course it's always possible or even probable it could have sounded better if recorded with high end mic but it was the only mic in reach when the inspiration arrived. It was an in the moment recording The relevant tune is Casey's song:
https://itunes.apple.com/au/album/home/id916339577

Very nice Tim. You haved proved your point on the 57.
As you pointed out the quality of the guitar and player are just as integral as well.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,136 Member Since:23/01/2011

#52 [url]

Mar 7 17 8:58 PM

mikerivers wrote:

bob olhsson wrote:
Tony Rice told me to put an 84 near the bottom of his guitar pointing up at his right hand. I've never found anything that worked as well!

 
That's where I always miked an acoustic guitar (KM-84 as soon as I got some), from back before I ever heard of Tony Rice. Then I read somewhere that pointing the mic toward the fingerboard where the neck joins the body was the "right" place. Sometimes it was righter than pointing up toward the playing hand, sometimes it was wronger.

 
I would agree that, although one way may work--even work spectacularly--most of the time, for me it doesn't work all of the time.  It's really about what the tune needs.  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

scullyfan

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,612 Member Since:27/07/2011

#53 [url]

Mar 7 17 9:15 PM

Somebody earlier in this thread had mentioned using their "good ear" to listen at various locations when the artist was playing in order to determine the "best" location to place the microphone. I used to do something similarly by plugging one of my ears with a finger and listening (with the other ear, obviously) in front of the acoustic guitar for a suitable location. Sometimes the magic was down toward the lower bout and other times it was more toward the 12th fret. I think, for me at least, it became a situation where I regularly placed the mic where I knew it would work so we could move on without stalling the progress of the session. I don't remember having any regrets later on or having to re-position mics on a regular basis. One thing I remember with great certainty is that all acoustic guitars are NOT created equally.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

jesse decarlo

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,531 Member Since:24/03/2013

#54 [url]

Mar 7 17 11:47 PM

I will confess that I've never had any luck moving my ear around to find the right spot, even though it really sounds (no pun intended) like a good idea. I guess it just doesn't seem to me that any mic "hears" the same way my ear does in the same position.

I have had good results, though, monitoring through headphones as I move the mic around.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

Mike Rivers

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,525 Member Since:13/10/2012

#55 [url]

Mar 8 17 7:59 AM

scullyfan wrote:
Somebody earlier in this thread had mentioned using their "good ear" to listen at various locations when the artist was playing in order to determine the "best" location to place the microphone. I used to do something similarly by plugging one of my ears with a finger and listening (with the other ear, obviously) in front of the acoustic guitar for a suitable location. Sometimes the magic was down toward the lower bout and other times it was more toward the 12th fret. I think, for me at least, it became a situation where I regularly placed the mic where I knew it would work so we could move on without stalling the progress of the session. I don't remember having any regrets later on or having to re-position mics on a regular basis. One thing I remember with great certainty is that all acoustic guitars are NOT created equally.


The reason to listen with one ear is because that works more like a microphone than listening with both ears. Guitars radiate different frequency ranges in different directions, which is why all the common placements sound different, and why getting the mic a few feet away (like how we usually hear a guitar) where the various sounds blend in air, sounds most like a guitar. Sometimes that's what we want, sometimes we want to keep certain frequencies out of the mix because they get in the way of something else, and sometimes we make the best tradeoff we can to eliminate leakage that would make mixing difficult.

The best illustration I've ever had about how many different sounds you can get out of a guitar was with one of those little DPA mics on a gooseneck attached to the guitar body. It was really easy to move it around while someone was playing, and listening how the sound changed. It's a better experiment than moving a mic on a stand around because its position relative to the guitar is much more stable than a player sitting or standing in front of a mic on a stand.
 



For a good time, call mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

Quote    Reply   
avatar

waltzmastering

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,659 Member Since:02/02/2011

#56 [url]

Mar 8 17 9:41 AM

hallams wrote:
For the 57 haters ;) ........here is a recording of my old maton using a single 57 and some lexicon reverb added to give a bit of stereo width. I think i have posted the song here before and hope you don't mind me doing so again. Some of the reverberation comes from the guitars harmonic overtones etc as the instrument has a lively sound. It may confirm a dislike of the humble 57 or might offer some hope. Of course it's always possible or even probable it could have sounded better if recorded with high end mic but it was the only mic in reach when the inspiration arrived. It was an in the moment recording The relevant tune is Casey's song:
https://itunes.apple.com/au/album/home/id916339577

Nice stuff.  Really liked the first 2 acoustic pieces..

Quote    Reply   
avatar

scullyfan

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,612 Member Since:27/07/2011

#57 [url]

Mar 8 17 11:35 AM

mikerivers wrote:

"The reason to listen with one ear is because that works more like a microphone than listening with both ears."

...which is why I said that I plug one of my ears when listening to the instrument.

Last Edited By: scullyfan Mar 8 17 11:37 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,949 Member Since:20/01/2011

#58 [url]

Mar 8 17 11:48 AM

I phantom power myself at 48 volts through alligator clips on my nipples. 

I find this 'makes me listen more like a microphone'. And has the added benefit of making me want to work faster. 

Quote    Reply   
avatar

scullyfan

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,612 Member Since:27/07/2011

#60 [url]

Mar 8 17 12:14 PM

weedywet wrote:
I phantom power myself at 48 volts through alligator clips on my nipples. 

I find this 'makes me listen more like a microphone'. And has the added benefit of making me want to work faster. 


Ha. I don't need phantom power, I draw my energy from the sun.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help