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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#21 [url]

Apr 6 17 10:29 AM

Thanks Guys

I know Jesse right??? no way a DAW at this time makes changes like this. I swear i must jsut need to set up a mix down setting somewhere to fix this. I swear to yo uthough, any of you would come in and sit down and I would play you both and you would hear it

i wont have time tonight to test some things but tomorrow evening I will try

thanks for all the help!

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seth.lucasmicrophone

Tin Man

Posts: 28 Member Since:03/10/2013

#22 [url]

Apr 6 17 11:07 AM

I don't know Cubase, but there's one thing that has tripped me up a few times in Pro Tools and I wonder if there's an analog in Cubase: when you "bounce to disk" in Pro Tools, either real-time or offline, you have to select the bus or outputs the mix is being fed from. It's possible to bounce something that doesn't come from the same source you're hearing in your monitors if you're not careful. I don't know why the source changes in Pro Tools, because I always source my mixes the same way to be sure I'm bouncing the stereo bus I'm hearing. But it does change from time to time, as does the format, and it's possible to bounce a mix that's entirely different from what you expect. I try to be careful, but yesterday I printed a dual-mono mix when I intended to print an interleaved stereo mix and I had to reprint.

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jesse decarlo

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,471 Member Since:24/03/2013

#23 [url]

Apr 6 17 11:18 AM

Good point Seth, definitely worth checking that. Accidentally bouncing from the reverb aux send (for example) could have something like the effect Tim is describing.

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#24 [url]

Apr 6 17 2:32 PM

Yes thanks Seth, I will double check my settings for export audio, which is the cubase term. There is a whole area where you can select what you want to export. i THINK its set to stereo out, but i will re check that.

thanks!

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chrisj

Gold Finger

Posts: 955 Member Since:22/02/2011

#25 [url]

Apr 6 17 4:09 PM

Maybe you just hate mp3s and truncating to 16 bit? Plenty of us go out on a limb and say we're bugged by truncating to 24 bit. Truncating to 16 bit ought to be enough damage that it could easily account for this, IF you just happen to hate what it does. Some are more sensitive than others, and your talk about what you like with the in-DAW sound (going to 24 bit converters, I assume?) suggests maybe the stuff you want out of audio is stuff that dies from truncation.

When you're talking about texture, truncating to 16 bit is NOT subtle. It's very much texture where you hear issues with truncation to 24 bit (and at that, not on every listen). If you're making 16 bit truncated files there isn't that much more to lose to get to 320K mp3, plus it will throw away some of your truncation artifacts for you (it'll go from crunchy, to mushy).

http://www.airwindows.com/not-just-another-dither/

This is free, ought to work in Cubase whether it's PC or Mac, and is designed for the purpose you're doing. Use the 'CD' version for going to 16 bit. Might help. (I also have TPDF, but it defaults to 24 bit because I'd rather use the fancier one for 16 bit stuff)

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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staticbetween

New Forum Friend

Posts: 6 Member Since:05/04/2017

#26 [url]

Apr 6 17 10:33 PM

Cubase doesn't dither on the outputs.  There's a dither plugin in the mastering folder.  I did check with dither - that wasn't my problem.

I didn't state it clearly in my previous post, but I'm sure the sound issues I'm experiencing are bug related.  Could be related to my system, but I doubt it.  

Trock, if you want to see if you are running into the same issues as I discovered, try this.  Make a copy of your project.  Remove every plugin.  Disable the channel strips if you're using them.  You want your tracks to have absolutely nothing on them.  Fader levels don't matter (as long as you're not clipping).  NOW, does your Cubase output and rendered output sound the same?  If it does, then you have the same issues as I had.



 

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#27 [url]

Apr 7 17 7:24 AM

Thanks Chris, I can't say for sure if its the MP3 itself or not, but what i can say is that all the work of making it sound good in the DAW is def ruined with the output and what I or others will hear.

@static - very good, thanks for the test and I will do that this weekend on this same song. i was listning again to the output file and it just sounds folded in on itself and the space and clarity is gone and the vocal gets louder than in cubase, i think because what was all hard panned L and R and clear in Cubase is not sort of all folded in now? horrible adjectives I know

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John Eppstein

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,175 Member Since:31/05/2015

#28 [url]

Apr 10 17 12:32 AM

trock wrote:
Hi All

Thanks for all this, I will try to cath up everyone and give more info

1) John - The WAV sounded better than the 320k mp3, sorry if that was written wrong
2) I just use whatever process cubase has to dither down to 44.1/16, i do not add any dither plugs etc so whatever cubase is doing thats what is going on.
3) Songs not mine, and not from cubase, but say part of my itunes library sound right, and really good. these are played thru the same OPAL speakers, same volume and the apollo twin is the Imac's soundcard
4) @Static - Thank you SO much for writing that, I am relieved to read others may have heard this and that i wasn't crazy. I also could not at all figure out what was going on. i still dont but at least there seems to be some sort of history with this. Any info woud be great, i love cubase and know it pretty well but i cant stand the diff going on here
5) One thing to note, when i was having my project before this stuff mixed for me, i would export each track individually as WAV's to be sent to be mixed. the final product from Kyle and Terry sounds fantastic. So i don't think exporting tracks that way are being affected. I haven't tested that lately but when i was doing that project i would export say an acoustic guitar that i knew the sound of in the project, then play that file on the desktop and it sounded the same.

I was messing around with a new idea for a song when i just got fed up with this latest example. i have that file on Dropbox but i have no way of then showing anyone the sound of whats in the daw. all i can say is that this 320k MP3 is very different than whats in cubase. so what I hear is playing thru the same plugs i always have but this file sounds much worse.

From what I've been able to find, Cubase does not dither, theyt leave it up to you to add a dither plugin. This is monumentally stupid, but that Steiberg for you. I guess they want to sell you a dither plugin.

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seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,527 Member Since:26/01/2011

#29 [url]

Apr 10 17 8:07 AM

I just tripped over that output selection business again yesterday. I did a couple of bounces that came out mono, I couldn't figure out why until I decided to follow my own advice....

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#30 [url]

Apr 13 17 8:18 AM

Still working on it, I will have alot mroe time this weekend with the holiday and a couple days off

i have never added a dither plug to any cubase session? in the export feature and box there are tons of choices, form a bunch of different MP3 settings to WAV settings and others. my sessions are just 44.1/32 and i can export a wav at 44.1/16 etc

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morespaceecho

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,243 Member Since:29/01/2011

#31 [url]

Apr 13 17 10:10 AM

just go with standard TPDF dither. it'll probably say something like "type 1 no noise shaping".

of course, if you just want to test if there's some problem with cubase's rendering, and you want to eliminate variables, forget about dither and just save the mix as a 32 bit float file. 

hopefully this simple, reasonable statement doesn't send the thread off a 16 page cliff.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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resolectric

Gold Finger

Posts: 643 Member Since:26/01/2011

#32 [url]

Apr 14 17 1:20 PM

John Eppstein wrote:
From what I've been able to find, Cubase does not dither, theyt leave it up to you to add a dither plugin. This is monumentally stupid, but that Steiberg for you. I guess they want to sell you a dither plugin.

It's included in both Cubase and Nuendo, no extra charge.
The user can opt for a different one, of course.
​The same happens in most, if not all, DAWs i guess.

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#33 [url]

Apr 15 17 7:17 PM

Well, I am STUPID!

I checked everything again today on a new riff i was working on exported it as an 328k mp3 and same thing! so i went back into the export settings and looked around, and then I found it, "Mix down to mono channel", and it was checked! I unchecked it and then file was perfect and exactly the same as in cubase. damn, so stupid, although I do not at all remember checking it in the first place.

I almost didn't want to post but the claim I made was totally against all DAW sound wars. it's an amazing diff between a stereo mixodwn and a mono channel, dang. I guess thats where the collapsed inwards sound I was hearing came from.

sorry to make such a mistake! carry on

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seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,527 Member Since:26/01/2011

#34 [url]

Apr 16 17 9:53 AM

trock wrote:
Well, I am STUPID!

I checked everything again today on a new riff i was working on exported it as an 328k mp3 and same thing! so i went back into the export settings and looked around, and then I found it, "Mix down to mono channel", and it was checked! I unchecked it and then file was perfect and exactly the same as in cubase. damn, so stupid, although I do not at all remember checking it in the first place.

I almost didn't want to post but the claim I made was totally against all DAW sound wars. it's an amazing diff between a stereo mixodwn and a mono channel, dang. I guess thats where the collapsed inwards sound I was hearing came from.

sorry to make such a mistake! carry on

Welcome to the club!!

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,665 Member Since:26/01/2011

#36 [url]

I love the old adjusting the EQ and hearing the effect only to realize the unit is in bypass.

In our minds we really do "hear" the change, and it is real to a certain extent, at least within our perception at the moment.  

​Same way with an engineer or musician who develops severe hearing loss over the years can still balance a mix.

Read, This is Your Brain On Music to find out why/how this phenomenon occurs.
.
The mind is our most powerful tool in the studio.

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

Last Edited By: silvertone . Edited 1 time.

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 281 Member Since:11/10/2013

#39 [url]

Thanks everyone, I def learned alot, there is so much to every part of this process its amazing! just the export section in cubase has a bunch of different things i still don't understand. Don't get me started on eq, compression, etc. At least I have panning down.

I no sooner fixed this then the next issue cropped up. trying to use an amp sim plugin in cubase, as an insert, at 128 buffers or even 64 has this unreal latency and echoy problem. UA said mute or turn off the input on the apollo so i will try that. or i am jsut sensitive as all get out to latency. ah well, someday there will be a new song lol

thanks all!

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seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,527 Member Since:26/01/2011

#40 [url]

Well, at the risk of sounding didactic I'd say you're really learning your gear in depth. That's not a bad thing unless it's keeping you from writing better songs, in which case I'd say learn to write better songs and throw the gear out the window. Good songs are infinitely harder to write and infinitely more valuable, lots of people can run gear.

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