avatar

zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,285 Member Since:20/01/2011

#41 [url]

Apr 17 17 7:36 AM

jaykadis wrote:
Our focus may be a bit narrow if we only concentrate on how the old paradigm of playing live for years before starting to record is being subverted, although that was how I came up. Music creators now have far more in the way of tools and some have figured out how to use them in entirely different ways. MAX/MSP is a great example. Our students use it to create really compelling live productions combining sound and video in novel ways that tip the hat to the light shows of the '60s while producing live EDM music on the fly. I have recently begun using MAX to create a really fun installation that uses a Plinko-inspired MIDI controller to randomly trigger a hundred or so short sound files from an array of 16 speakers. It has turned out far cooler than I imagined. I won't be trying to combine that with my "regular" band for the moment, but using MAX/MSP with our live show might become practical in the near future once we get back to regular gigging. I've had plenty of argument, but I still think technology advances push changes in popular music and some of those changes are for the better.
 I agree.

There is such an unnaturally divisive rift there, generally these are created because someone feels threatened in their ability to express themselves, but perhaps they feel the market is ignoring them. Unfortunately this is the reality now, there is no market, there's only 100 monkeys typing, and sometimes expertise is the key to bringing some of these monkeys together to create something great.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,680 Member Since:26/01/2011

#43 [url]

Apr 17 17 8:35 AM

zmix wrote:

jaykadis wrote:Our focus may be a bit narrow if we only concentrate on how the old paradigm of playing live for years before starting to record is being subverted, although that was how I came up. Music creators now have far more in the way of tools and some have figured out how to use them in entirely different ways. MAX/MSP is a great example. Our students use it to create really compelling live productions combining sound and video in novel ways that tip the hat to the light shows of the '60s while producing live EDM music on the fly. I have recently begun using MAX to create a really fun installation that uses a Plinko-inspired MIDI controller to randomly trigger a hundred or so short sound files from an array of 16 speakers. It has turned out far cooler than I imagined. I won't be trying to combine that with my "regular" band for the moment, but using MAX/MSP with our live show might become practical in the near future once we get back to regular gigging. I've had plenty of argument, but I still think technology advances push changes in popular music and some of those changes are for the better.

 I agree.

There is such an unnaturally divisive rift there, generally these are created because someone feels threatened in their ability to express themselves, but perhaps they feel the market is ignoring them. Unfortunately this is the reality now, there is no market, there's only 100 monkeys typing, and sometimes expertise is the key to bringing some of these monkeys together to create something great.

I think that's the inevitable result of what we see as the race to the bottom.
 

Quote    Reply   
avatar

silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,797 Member Since:26/01/2011

#44 [url]

Apr 17 17 9:13 AM

I think we live in a society today where most people do not want to listen to the old guard at all, even if there are years of wisdom and experience behind some of what they are trying to teach.

Everything is still based in theory and practice, most people just don't want to spend the amount of time it takes to become proficient anymore. Seems like everybody wanst to rise to the top right away and be king daddy to everybody for everything... we all know better, it takes time to develop a skill set.

"Patience is a virgin" - Archie Bunker

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

Quote    Reply   
avatar

soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,512 Member Since:04/02/2011

#46 [url]

Apr 17 17 9:31 AM

silvertone wrote:
I think we live in a society today where most people do not want to listen to the old guard at all, even if there are years of wisdom and experience behind some of what they are trying to teach.

Everything is still based in theory and practice, most people just don't want to spend the amount of time it takes to become proficient anymore. Seems like everybody wanst to rise to the top right away and be king daddy to everybody for everything... we all know better, it takes time to develop a skill set.

"Patience is a virgin" - Archie Bunker

I spend a lot of time working in collaboration with people younger than me-- people born in the 1990s, mostly. I also spend a lot of time working with people who are much older than me-- born in the 1960s or before.

My personal experience (just one person's experience, FWIW) does not sync with what you're saying here.  In fact, it has been my experience that the younger guard are, as a population, FAR more open to learning from the wisdom of the older guard than the other way around. Again, this is just among people with whom I'm acquainted.

In a rapidly changing world (and it is RAPIDLY changing, especially in our sector), I at 36 have a LOT to learn from a 21 year-old. About how music is consumed, about music's evolving cultural relevance and context, about interesting new things that are happening in music that are outside my immediate purview, etc.

It can be truly humbling.
 
 

brad allen williams

Quote    Reply   
avatar

owlander

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,037 Member Since:27/01/2011

#47 [url]

Apr 17 17 9:59 AM

seth wrote:

zmix wrote:

jaykadis wrote:Our focus may be a bit narrow if we only concentrate on how the old paradigm of playing live for years before starting to record is being subverted, although that was how I came up. Music creators now have far more in the way of tools and some have figured out how to use them in entirely different ways. MAX/MSP is a great example. Our students use it to create really compelling live productions combining sound and video in novel ways that tip the hat to the light shows of the '60s while producing live EDM music on the fly. I have recently begun using MAX to create a really fun installation that uses a Plinko-inspired MIDI controller to randomly trigger a hundred or so short sound files from an array of 16 speakers. It has turned out far cooler than I imagined. I won't be trying to combine that with my "regular" band for the moment, but using MAX/MSP with our live show might become practical in the near future once we get back to regular gigging. I've had plenty of argument, but I still think technology advances push changes in popular music and some of those changes are for the better.

 I agree.

There is such an unnaturally divisive rift there, generally these are created because someone feels threatened in their ability to express themselves, but perhaps they feel the market is ignoring them. Unfortunately this is the reality now, there is no market, there's only 100 monkeys typing, and sometimes expertise is the key to bringing some of these monkeys together to create something great.

I think that's the inevitable result of what we see as the race to the bottom.
 

I don't think it's a race to the bottom. Just a different event.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,512 Member Since:04/02/2011

#48 [url]

Apr 17 17 10:22 AM

owlander wrote:

seth wrote:

zmix wrote:

jaykadis wrote:Our focus may be a bit narrow if we only concentrate on how the old paradigm of playing live for years before starting to record is being subverted, although that was how I came up. Music creators now have far more in the way of tools and some have figured out how to use them in entirely different ways. MAX/MSP is a great example. Our students use it to create really compelling live productions combining sound and video in novel ways that tip the hat to the light shows of the '60s while producing live EDM music on the fly. I have recently begun using MAX to create a really fun installation that uses a Plinko-inspired MIDI controller to randomly trigger a hundred or so short sound files from an array of 16 speakers. It has turned out far cooler than I imagined. I won't be trying to combine that with my "regular" band for the moment, but using MAX/MSP with our live show might become practical in the near future once we get back to regular gigging. I've had plenty of argument, but I still think technology advances push changes in popular music and some of those changes are for the better.

 I agree.

There is such an unnaturally divisive rift there, generally these are created because someone feels threatened in their ability to express themselves, but perhaps they feel the market is ignoring them. Unfortunately this is the reality now, there is no market, there's only 100 monkeys typing, and sometimes expertise is the key to bringing some of these monkeys together to create something great.

I think that's the inevitable result of what we see as the race to the bottom.
 

I don't think it's a race to the bottom. Just a different event.

Very much so.

To the connoisseur of fine mechanical typewriters, the touchscreen keyboard on an iPad represents a devolution.

brad allen williams

Quote    Reply   
avatar

silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,797 Member Since:26/01/2011

#49 [url]

Apr 17 17 6:43 PM

soapfoot wrote:

silvertone wrote:
I think we live in a society today where most people do not want to listen to the old guard at all, even if there are years of wisdom and experience behind some of what they are trying to teach.

Everything is still based in theory and practice, most people just don't want to spend the amount of time it takes to become proficient anymore. Seems like everybody wanst to rise to the top right away and be king daddy to everybody for everything... we all know better, it takes time to develop a skill set.

"Patience is a virgin" - Archie Bunker

I spend a lot of time working in collaboration with people younger than me-- people born in the 1990s, mostly. I also spend a lot of time working with people who are much older than me-- born in the 1960s or before.

My personal experience (just one person's experience, FWIW) does not sync with what you're saying here.  In fact, it has been my experience that the younger guard are, as a population, FAR more open to learning from the wisdom of the older guard than the other way around. Again, this is just among people with whom I'm acquainted.

In a rapidly changing world (and it is RAPIDLY changing, especially in our sector), I at 36 have a LOT to learn from a 21 year-old. About how music is consumed, about music's evolving cultural relevance and context, about interesting new things that are happening in music that are outside my immediate purview, etc.

It can be truly humbling.
 
 

I'm talking society as a whole, not necessarily our little industry.  

Of course in the music industry I work with clients of all ages as well.  In mastering, at all ages, I find most want to learn, are very respectful and are open minded.

When it comes to recording (and in this region) I find it hit and miss at all ages, some know it all, some are set in there ways, some are eager to learn. Some don't want to learn.  Egos are more fragile. 

I also love learning from my young clients as well as my older clients. I love team efforts. Collaboration is fun. I don't care for anyone being disrespectful to anyone else.  It can shut down creativity.  

I just see a lack lack of patience for the time it takes to truly develop the skill set.  Again, not necessarily talking about our industry.

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,205 Member Since:23/01/2011

#50 [url]

Apr 18 17 9:47 AM

Whew, get busy for a few days and then something like this tidal wave of relevant thoughts and POV's emerges and threatens to drown me.  Seth--imo, several things you said border on profound.  Lots of good thoughts (with deep rudders) from many sources.  I'll probably have to read this 2 more times to 'extract' most of the info... after first listening to the Beauty Pill record, which I just bought.  One quick thought: some people probably do not want to do things in an accepted/recommended/proven way... until they get their asses in trouble.  But that's kind of a lowbrow observation in a highbrow thread.  

Last Edited By: maarvold Apr 18 17 10:12 AM. Edited 1 time.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,512 Member Since:04/02/2011

#51 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:07 AM

maarvold wrote:
One quick thought: some people probably do not want to do things in an accepted/recommended/proven way... until they get their asses in trouble.  

Probably 'twas ever thus.

Since Allan Holdsworth's passing the other day, I've been watching a bunch of old instructional videos. He talks about how his dad was a professional piano player, and he could've asked his dad to teach him about harmony at any time, but he wanted to do it his own way out of stubbornness. So he made up his own names for scales, and his own symbols, and his own "music theory" system.

And as a result, he didn't sound like anyone else. He certainly put in the work, and certainly did not want to do things in the accepted/recommended/proven way. And it worked out GREAT for him, and for the whole world.

Maybe such things are not generational, but rather age-related. Youth transitioning into adulthood brings with it the need for self-determination, and this very often results in a strong rejection of orthodoxy or things that came before. I think it's healthy, to some extent.

brad allen williams

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,205 Member Since:23/01/2011

#52 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:15 AM

I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,512 Member Since:04/02/2011

#53 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:30 AM

maarvold wrote:
I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

and one thing thar does seem to be happening (and there's data to back this up) is that "transitional period" is longer with each passing generation. Many of my mother's friends were married by age 16, certainly by age 18. Now many people live with their parents until as old as age 30.

brad allen williams

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,205 Member Since:23/01/2011

#54 [url]

Apr 18 17 10:46 AM

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:
I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

and one thing thar does seem to be happening (and there's data to back this up) is that "transitional period" is longer with each passing generation. Many of my mother's friends were married by age 16, certainly by age 18. Now many people live with their parents until as old as age 30.

 
Then you add in the fact I've heard stated that more works of acknowledged genius were created at age 27 than any other age and... now we're getting somewhere (or not).  But no wonder there's a shifting landscape.  

Quote    Reply   
avatar

chrisj

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,008 Member Since:22/02/2011

#56 [url]

Apr 18 17 3:49 PM

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:
I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

and one thing thar does seem to be happening (and there's data to back this up) is that "transitional period" is longer with each passing generation. Many of my mother's friends were married by age 16, certainly by age 18. Now many people live with their parents until as old as age 30.

Well, that's more economics than anything else. It's like asking why millennials aren't buying diamonds. These folks would love to move out. I know a bunch of 'em from working on fandom conventions.

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

Quote    Reply   
avatar

jimlongo

Gold Finger

Posts: 640 Member Since:28/01/2011

#57 [url]

Apr 18 17 3:57 PM

chrisj wrote:

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:
I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

and one thing thar does seem to be happening (and there's data to back this up) is that "transitional period" is longer with each passing generation. Many of my mother's friends were married by age 16, certainly by age 18. Now many people live with their parents until as old as age 30.

Well, that's more economics than anything else. It's like asking why millennials aren't buying diamonds. These folks would love to move out. I know a bunch of 'em from working on fandom conventions.

No it's more than economics. I left home at 20, I couldn't imagine any of my children being equipped to do that.  At 28 they're still like teenagers in many aspects and haven't finished growing yet.  In truth my generation was probably about as mature, but the situation demanded you grow up fast, now they have the leisure to stay younger longer. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,512 Member Since:04/02/2011

#58 [url]

Apr 18 17 5:14 PM

chrisj wrote:

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:
I don't have kids, so I'm maybe not fully qualified to voice the following opinion, but it seems to me much of what goes on with kids from around age 13 on is about creating the necessary environment to break free of the nest.  

and one thing thar does seem to be happening (and there's data to back this up) is that "transitional period" is longer with each passing generation. Many of my mother's friends were married by age 16, certainly by age 18. Now many people live with their parents until as old as age 30.

Well, that's more economics than anything else. It's like asking why millennials aren't buying diamonds. These folks would love to move out. I know a bunch of 'em from working on fandom conventions.

FWIW, my comment wasn't intended to be any sort of value judgment or commentary on that issue, only to say that the transition into adulthood is becoming ever-wider and more blurred with each successive generation.

 

brad allen williams

Quote    Reply   
avatar

maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,205 Member Since:23/01/2011

#59 [url]

Apr 20 17 9:12 AM

So, if "Beauty Pill Describes Things As They Are" is the inspiration, I have now listened to over half of it.  "Excellent sound" would be an accurate description for this record.  It 'hurts my ears' just a little bit, but that's because it begs to be played loud and then uses that reference volume level to assualt us in spots... but, when that happens, I think that is exactly the intention.  When clean, super-clear sound is what they are producing, this is like a hyper version of that.  And the way the low mids are handled is very impressive: character-driven and tons of weight with no hint of muddiness.  Also lots of 'bell-y', bright stuff that could very easily be painful and overbearing but, instead, has that same natural super-low-distortion clarity.  Overall, it's definitely 'ear candy city'.  I would think this would be a spectacular record to listen to on a killer, full-range system because of the sheer amount of intelligently-rendered and executed information, which also feels super-wide and, when warranted, deep and ambient.  But this record is not a 'pleasure listen'--more like a sonic tour de force.  Because the pleasure aspect is missing, it's a bit abstract for me.  But it is an amazing acheivement and I can't even begin to figure out how they did it.  

P.S., I forgot to mention the use of melodic counterlines in some of the songs--this represents a level of compositional sophistication not often seen in this day and age.  

Last Edited By: maarvold Apr 20 17 9:40 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help