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zmix

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#61 [url]

Apr 19 17 8:04 AM

owlander wrote:
Lack of trust shows low self esteem. Just kidding.

Also, what Larry is referring to in his post, Chuck, are alternative facts...

Damn...  I used to work on a lot of "Alternative Music"....  I am finally beginning to understand what that was.....!!!

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silvertone

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#62 [url]

Apr 19 17 8:59 AM

zmix wrote:

silvertone wrote:No matter what your ears should be the final judge.


We all hear differently. Is Terry wrong in what he hears? Am I? Is Chuck? Or John?


I don't think so but I only trust my ears. They are what tell my brain, this is good, this is bad.


Personally, I don't care what can be technically proven or as shown superior. As we all know digital is perfect sound forever... and maybe it is to some. The majority of people now know it's not. Specifications do not always tell the whole truth.


I love old tube pres but a THAT chip is technically superior... yet I know which one I'd rather record with... YMWV

First of all, no.  The majority of people now have been cynically been persuaded that "digital audio is bad, m'kay?"  by trumped up demonstrations of transcoded  data compressed audio, but in reality most people prefer digital these days.   Perhaps you're just being hyperbolic, in which case, fine... 

It's absolutely true, however that you should never take anyone's opinions as a fact unless you've actually done the work of verifying their claims by reproducing their tests...

In the meantime:

Yes Chuck I am. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

When it comes to audio I'm just old enough to trust my gut and no ones else's.  I trust my ears, they've earned me a living all my life.

We all know, in our gut, what is right and what is wrong.  People need to follow their gut more these days.  Too many just go along with the masses and this society is a mess for it IMHO.  That is just IMHO... so please don't trust what I have to say : )   (See how I turned that around, fucked up right?) Ha ha

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

Last Edited By: silvertone May 1 17 5:24 AM. Edited 1 time.

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zmix

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#63 [url]

Apr 19 17 9:28 AM

silvertone wrote:
zmix wrote:

silvertone wrote:No matter what your ears should be the final judge.


We all hear differently. Is Terry wrong in what he hears? Am I? Is Chuck? Or John?


I don't think so but I only trust my ears. They are what tell my brain, this is good, this is bad.


Personally, I don't care what can be technically proven or as shown superior. As we all know digital is perfect sound forever... and maybe it is to some. The majority of people now know it's not. Specifications do not always tell the whole truth.


I love old tube pres but a THAT chip is technically superior... yet I know which one I'd rather record with... YMWV

First of all, no.  The majority of people now have been cynically been persuaded that "digital audio is bad, m'kay?"  by trumped up demonstrations of transcoded  data compressed audio, but in reality most people prefer digital these days.   Perhaps you're just being hyperbolic, in which case, fine... 

It's absolutely true, however that you should never take anyone's opinions as a fact unless you've actually done the work of verifying their claims by reproducing their tests...

In the meantime:

Yes Chuck I am. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

When it comes to audio I'm just old enough to trust my gut and no ones else's.  I trust my ears, they've earned me a living all my life.

I trust my wife, no one has my better interest at heart than her, not even myself.  That is about the extent of my trust.  Sad I know but I've been stabbed in the back too many times. Ever a watchful eye now.

Trust does not come easy for me.  Never has... never will.

Being honest with ones self is the hardest thing to do in life, we lie to ourselves constantly as part of our survival instinct/mechanism.

We all know, in our gut, what is right and what is wrong.  People need to follow their gut more these days.  Too many just go along with the masses and this society is a mess for it IMHO.  That is just IMHO... so please don't trust what I have to say : )   (See how I turned that around, fucked up right?) Ha ha

True,  I have absolutely no faith in anyone's ability to discern and then describe a fleeting moment during the intersection of an emotional and physical event (that music is), let alone quantify and describe that in any reliably transferable way.... most people are barely articulate enough to muster anything more than "wow..!"

But this is why we have science.  It allows us to observe phenomenon, note the circumstances, generate a methodology to study and then discover the "language" of the experience.
Gut impressions are only the first step. I'd contend that we have too many "gut reactions" available to us, and not enough science.

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gtoledo3

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#64 [url]

Apr 19 17 9:32 AM

That's interesting Larry. I find myself agreeing with you the vast majority of the time.

But I have to say that it has stood out to me, for a long, long time now, that "going by our gut" has been driving society downwards... too many people do not think critically, don't stop and think about how they developed their opinion and if it follows logic or not, etc. I think of this as one of the main problems of society.

Many people just have truly horrible gut instinct, and an extremely poor level of information awareness to base their gut instincts on. Further, people seem to not even feel the need to be informed about something before making definitive statements. A truly shameless era...

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jaykadis

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#65 [url]

Apr 19 17 9:49 AM

Gut reactions are the result of our instantaneous perception of incoming sensory information. Since our conscious awareness of that information depends on the current state of the adaptable nervous system, the same input can produce different gut reactions over time. Nevertheless, some studies have shown a first impression to be more often correct than would be predicted by chance. Each gut reactions is a single data point, though.

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owlander

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#66 [url]

Apr 19 17 9:51 AM

Re: George
Going by gut is still important in terms of instinctual decision making; that is, decisions based on many hundreds of thousands of years of selective and evolved information pickup. You can't learn that stuff from a book, it's unconscious, but you can 'feel' it in your software...per say. Thinking critically, is conscious questioning.

Last Edited By: owlander Apr 19 17 9:54 AM. Edited 1 time.

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soapfoot

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#67 [url]

Apr 19 17 9:53 AM

For me, it's simple-- for pursuits that are rational, I trust my intellect and the scientific method. For pursuits that are instinctual or irrational, I trust my gut.

I'd never "go with my gut instinct" to solve a complex mathematics problem. But I'd never use reason or the scientific method to fall in love--with my wife and I, we "just knew". We celebrate 12 years next month.

Music-making is for me very much more like falling in love than like solving a mathematics problem. So I tend to trust my gut a lot. However, there are many pursuits adjacent to music, and which work in support of music, that are a lot more like solving mathematics problems. But which-is-which, or where the line is drawn, can be reasonably contested by reasonable people.

Where each of us makes the distinction between the two mindsets is probably up to our individual experiences, priorities, personalities, etc. Some people might choose instruments and tools based on study of specifications. I tend to prioritize emotional connection over even technical suitability, most times--I don't care if the 2017 Telecaster stays in tune better, is quieter, and has measurably lower action and better intonation than the 1954 blackguard. If I pick up the 1954 blackguard and FEEL something more, then that's the better guitar to me. Even if it's based on nothing that can be empirically verified.

And I do think it's important to make a distinction between that set of priorities and "magical thinking." Because it's sentimentality, perhaps, but not self-delusion--at least not in every case. And I think artists and musicians can be forgiven for being a touch sentimental. It's one of the things that makes us suited to connect with audiences on a feeling level.

brad allen williams

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silvertone

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#70 [url]

Apr 19 17 11:46 AM

I should have said "gut reaction based on years of experience". It is the experience that is the qualifier. Otherwise without the experience, I agree with all of you.

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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waltzingbear

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#71 [url]

Apr 19 17 12:47 PM

regarding the "gut". One way to look at it is that its our job to give that "gut" feeling to John Q.

To do that we need to know way more than just our "gut" reaction.

Cheers
Alan

Alan Garren
Waltzing Bear Audio

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gold

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#72 [url]

Apr 19 17 1:12 PM

When I put on my wannabe Alan Garren hat I expressly try not to listen to my gut. Questioning my assumptions gets things fixed much faster.

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zmix

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#73 [url]

Apr 19 17 2:37 PM

I'd like to say that, in true internet fashion, the topic seems to have become a declaration of polarity on the subject (with continuing distinctions being drawn, just watch!)...

It's NOT an either/or, people...


We (I hope) all have a "gut" feeling about things, it's just a question of whether you follow it up with any additional thinking..


Said best here:






Last Edited By: zmix Apr 19 17 2:48 PM. Edited 3 times.

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gold

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#74 [url]

Apr 19 17 2:44 PM

zmix wrote:
the subject seems to have been a declaration of polarity on the subject...

It's NOT and either/or, people... we (I hope) all have a "gut" feeling about things, it;s just a question of whether you follow it up with any additional thinking..

 

 
Not from me. Just pointing out that when I have a technical hat on I question my gut as a matter of course. When I'm mastering a record I don't usually. But sometimes I do...

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weedywet

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Posts: 6,005 Member Since:20/01/2011

#75 [url]

Apr 19 17 3:23 PM

owlander wrote:
Re: George
Going by gut is still important in terms of instinctual decision making; that is, decisions based on many hundreds of thousands of years of selective and evolved information pickup. You can't learn that stuff from a book, it's unconscious, but you can 'feel' it in your software...per say. Thinking critically, is conscious questioning.

 


even I am not that old

so what you're arguing for there isn't really "experience" but rather it's actual 'instinct', which, it can be argued, humans don't really operate on, except at a very basic level (such as a drive to survive)

 

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owlander

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#76 [url]

Apr 19 17 4:37 PM

weedywet wrote:

owlander wrote:
Re: George
Going by gut is still important in terms of instinctual decision making; that is, decisions based on many hundreds of thousands of years of selective and evolved information pickup. You can't learn that stuff from a book, it's unconscious, but you can 'feel' it in your software...per say. Thinking critically, is conscious questioning.

 


even I am not that old

so what you're arguing for there isn't really "experience" but rather it's actual 'instinct', which, it can be argued, humans don't really operate on, except at a very basic level (such as a drive to survive)



 

Well, i'm never really arguing. :) I think it's more subtle than most care to be aware of, or as I implied in my statement; unconscious.

If we back ourselves up, say into orbit(not that I'm often there :)), and view the planet over the last 500,000 years, we can quickly deduce that humans are animals that evolved on this planet exactly like every other animal evolved; albeit, having larger more complex brains. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human

This means that we share everything that other animals do, but on a higher operating level as you pointed out.

The second brain is a nerve mass in your stomach that relay's emotional response signals originating in the primary brain. Gut feeling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system

The signals, that drive this gut centre aren't always conscious, but can be instinctual...or unconscious. There are a multitude of examples once you start to look.
I believe, that both conscious and unconscious signals can drive this emotional centre. It's been evolving there for a very long time.
 

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silvertone

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#77 [url]

Apr 19 17 10:03 PM

I see I steered another thread off course just trying to explain a few words that people picked up on. This use to be so much easier over a few beers in the local pub. Well, gin for me.

I'm just a feel person, a gut person, whatever you want to call it but I'm tuned in to the rhythm and feel of everything in life. So I live in that world and work in that world.

Emotionally it is hard... but I love it, riding the roller coasters of emotions everyday is a thrill... having it replayover in my head all night long just adds to the trip...

Life... or De Vivo...

Enjoy everyone!

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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chrisj

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#78 [url]

Apr 20 17 5:45 AM

Oddly I've just become obsessed with Effectron delays, with a gut feeling there was something interesting about them compared to the easily available PCM digital delays (which have more full frequency response, obviously).

Come to find out through a little exploring, that the maker was not 'Delta Labs' for no reason… the little buggers use different converters than most digital audio does, and the delay buffer is apparently a crude one-bit chain. They're basically garbage tier DSD. Looking forward to getting a couple to play with :)

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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silvertone

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#79 [url]

Apr 20 17 6:49 AM

chrisj wrote:
Oddly I've just become obsessed with Effectron delays, with a gut feeling there was something interesting about them compared to the easily available PCM digital delays (which have more full frequency response, obviously).

Come to find out through a little exploring, that the maker was not 'Delta Labs' for no reason… the little buggers use different converters than most digital audio does, and the delay buffer is apparently a crude one-bit chain. They're basically garbage tier DSD. Looking forward to getting a couple to play with :)

I had several when they came out.  A I, II and a III.  One could do 16 seconds of delay so I could do "Frippertronics" with it.  I kept it partched into a little mixers so I could play a guitar line, pick up the bass, play a bass line, walk over to the keys and loop them.   This was way before the looper concept came into being.  Robert Fripp was ahead of his time.

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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zmix

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#80 [url]

Apr 20 17 8:05 AM

Much like present day DSD, Delta labs claimed that "the natural sound quality of all DeltaLab products is superior to other effects processors" due to their use of their use of Adaptive Delta Modulation, though at the time nobody agreed with them that this was the case, and PCM became the  preferred technology...

I  recall that they had a very unpleasant HF distortion.

Here is the Effectron I, II, III catalog from 1984



Larry, Do you recall which of your Effectrons had the extended delay time?  (Perhaps it was the  "Echotron ADM4096?")

Note that  Electro Harmonix released the "Fripp in a Box" 16 second delay (which used space-age Bubble Memory!!) in 1981

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