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spiritwalker

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,682 Member Since:14/02/2011

#181 [url]

Mar 14 17 10:56 AM

Why yes I do!

As a matter of fact the final instrument I am getting made from the blanks my father started will be based on a Tele thinline.

With these specs

Goldtop with cream or white/cream pearl binding and pickguard
Bigsby B5 Fender Vibrato Kit
3 pickups - Two Tele and one centre Strat
Strat controls
Quartersawn neck with ebony fretboard and stainless steel frets

OK it's cold here

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,404 Member Since:04/02/2011

#182 [url]

Mar 14 17 11:02 AM

waltzmastering wrote:
Curious if anyone is liking the Fender Tele Thinlines?


image

I have one of the two-humbucker versions, mine is from '74 I think. It has been bastardized, but is functionally in original condition (Lollar Regal replicas of the original pickups; all parts were missing whe I got it as just a stripped husk with no finish).

I absolutely LOVE it. Not as a "telecaster" per se, but as its own thing. It works in so many contexts; I feel like I can play it on almost any gig. Mine is exceptionally lightweight-- many of them are quite heavy. I've played scores of all-original, more-valuable examples that I don't like anywhere near as much as my bastardized one, FWIW.

One quirk of mine that's not typical-- it has the softest, spongiest neck of any guitar I've ever owned. When the weather gets warmer and more humid, I have to take up to two full turns of truss rod out or it will back-bow like crazy. When the weather gets colder and drier, I have to put up to two full turns in or it's more suitable for archery than music.

brad allen williams

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waltzmastering

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,665 Member Since:02/02/2011

#184 [url]

Mar 14 17 12:28 PM

Nice. Always wanted to try one, but thought they might be boxy.
Good to know they can be decent. I think Cliff (Mr. Cash) has one that he likes as well, might be a double cutaway.
The only semi-hollows, I've owned were a Yamaha SA 2000, (because Tommy Tedesco had one). Wish I never sold it.
..and a DanElectro that was a bit hollow/boxy sounding.

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#185 [url]

Mar 15 17 7:14 AM

waltzmastering wrote:
Curious if anyone is liking the Fender Tele Thinlines?


image
The Thinline Telecaster was designed by German designer Roger Rossmeisl.

He also designed the Rickenbacker 300 series guitars and the  and 4000/1 basses..!!



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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,404 Member Since:04/02/2011

#186 [url]

Mar 15 17 7:52 AM

zmix wrote:

waltzmastering wrote:Curious if anyone is liking the Fender Tele Thinlines?


image

The Thinline Telecaster was designed by German designer Roger Rossmeisl.

He also designed the Rickenbacker 300 series guitars and the  and 4000/1 basses..!!

Semie Mosely, of Mosrite, was an apprentice to Rossmeisl (which is why Mosrites have that Rickenbacker-like German carve)

brad allen williams

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,404 Member Since:04/02/2011

#188 [url]

Mar 15 17 10:34 AM

jzombie wrote:
Waltz beat me to the Thinline question, I've rarely seen them "in the field", but have also been curious. Had no idea about Roger Rossmeisl, but as a big fan of the other designs Chuck mentioned, I probably need to try a Thinline too! Not a bad track record for a designer...

Well, he was also responsible for the awful Coronado. Can't win 'em all, I guess.

brad allen williams

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demiana

Gold Finger

Posts: 479 Member Since:18/02/2011

#190 [url]

Mar 15 17 11:12 AM

I have recorded a modern Thinline reissue with humbuckers, and that did sound very muddy. But I'm told that the original Wide Range humbuckers are completely different and much better, never tried them though.

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,404 Member Since:04/02/2011

#191 [url]

Mar 15 17 11:54 AM

demiana wrote:
I have recorded a modern Thinline reissue with humbuckers, and that did sound very muddy. But I'm told that the original Wide Range humbuckers are completely different and much better, never tried them though.

Completely different. The genuine article are the opposite of muddy, and actually remind me a little bit of a juiced-up Fender single-coil. 

Here's the total story of why you heard what you heard and what's up with the pickups on those. 

Gibson-style humbukers of Seth Lover's 1957 design are constructed like this: Two coils of opposite winding direction are wound on separate bobbins, and connected in series. One coil is wound around steel "slugs" and the other coil is wound around adjustable screw polepieces. None of the polepieces--slugs nor screws--are permanent magnets. They're just plain rods/screws of steel. Underneath both coils, under a spacer, sits a permanent bar magnet of AlNiCo II, V, IV, or ceramic ferrite. One side of the bar is "north" and the other side is "south." The north side contacts one row of polepieces (say, the slugs) and the south side contacts the other, meaning a single magnet temporarily charges both rows, but in opposite magnetic polarity. 

Fender Wide-Range Humbuckers (also Seth Lover's design, incidentally! He defected from G to F) are an entirely different animal. Two coils are wound on slightly-larger bobbins, generally with a higher number of turns. Each coil is wound around six permanent magnet polepieces-- three adjustable threaded rods with screw-heads, and three non-adjustable slugs. One coil has the adjustable poles on the bass strings, the other has them on the treble strings. Because AlNiCo alloys and ceramic ferrite are too brittle to be threaded reliably, the polepieces were made of an alloy called CuNiFe (copper, nickel and iron). This couldn't hold quite the same level of flux as AlNiCo, but was an acceptable permanent magnet. A Fender WRHB is, in practice, very much like two Strat pickups with CuNiFe magnets connected in series with reverse winding and reverse polarity. The output is higher than a vintage PAF.

There are some other minor construction differences as well, but that's the gist.

Now.

In the modern era, CuNiFe magnets are hard to come by, for whatever reason... It has few industrial advantages anymore, and the supply chains just don't really exist. So for the thinline reissues (which were budget import guitars anyway), modern Fender just took some VERY cheap ceramic-magnet Gibson style humbuckers, put them in the large WRHB chrome covers, and filled the enormous void under the cover with tons of wax potting. They dolled them up so that the screws appeared in the right place. They will pass signal, but what they are is very cheap ceramic PAF-style buckers with bar magnets, short coils, lower output, lower turns, and just generally no relation at all to a true WRHB.

Jason Lollar, Curtis Novak, and a guy who goes by Telenator make proper WRHB re-creations now, which did not exist until fairly recently. Telenator has actually found a source for CuNiFe magnets, but they're very expensive. Lollar and Novak have sourced threaded AlNiCo magnets, which are possible to make now due to advances in tooling. Any of the three are a MASSIVE upgrade to the "fake WRHB" used in the imported Fenders, and actually make them into something that begins to resemble a real thinline.

 

brad allen williams

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#193 [url]

Mar 15 17 6:40 PM

I remember being completely uninterested in the Fender Humbuckers... till I played a Custom or Deluxe (or Starcaster).. wow.. a *really* interesting and highly original sound....



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Wide_Range


Construction

The Wide Range pickup was conceived to be sonically closer to Fender's single coil pickups than Gibson humbuckers. Due to the difficulty of machining AlNiCo magnets into screw-type pole pieces, this concept called for the use of the more easily machinable CuNiFe (Copper/Nickel/Iron) rod magnets as pole pieces within the coil structures, to function more like a regular Strat pickup than a Gibson humbucker. Whereas Gibson humbuckers use a single bar magnet under the coils of the pickup, Wide Range pickups have individual CuNiFe magnets that were threaded and slotted to resemble the adjustable screw type poles of a Gibson humbucker. The pickup bobbins were wound with approximately 6800 turns of copper wire around the pole-pieces and the Wide Range pickup has a DC resistance of around 10 kΩ.

There have been three reissues of the pickup, one manufactured in Japan using ceramic magnets, one in Mexico using alnico. Despite an almost identical appearance, both are constructed differently from the original 1970s unit. The current Mexican reissues, much like a Gibson humbucker, feature a bar magnet underneath the bobbins that abuts to 6 screw type pole-pieces in each coil; they are simply conventional humbuckers placed in the larger "wide range" humbucker casing, and the gap is filled with wax. Although neither pickup precisely replicates the sound of the original, they are at least tonally similar with the Japanese reissue sounding hotter and the Mexican reissue sounding more like a standard Gibson humbucker. A more recent reissue, currently exclusive to the Lee Ranaldo signature Jazzmaster, has been "re-voiced" to Ranaldo's specifications, but appears to be constructed similarly to the Mexican reissue.

There are several pickup makers producing modern replacements based on the original design, namely Jason Lollar, Curtis Novak, Seymour Duncan and Telenator in the US, The Creamery from Manchester, UK and Oil City Pickups from London UK are also available. Telenator currently is the only company in the world to offer actual CuNiFe threaded magnets in two versions of their pickups, with other manufacturers using FeCrCo and some using AlNiCo threaded magnets.

In the 1970s, the Fender Wide Range Humbucker was wired using 1M audio volume and tone pots, which resulted in an open, bright sound. Modern reissues are commonly wired using 250K volume and tone pots, resulting in a more choked and muddy sound.

Sound

Original "Wide Range" pickups are described as sounding "fat" but with improved clarity and detail over Gibson humbuckers. Combined with a bridge single coil pickup on a Telecaster, it produces a smooth and warm yet biting sound. Famous users include Keith Richards of The Rolling Stones, Graham Coxon of Blur, Wes Borland of Limp Bizkit/Black Light Burns, Rich Robinson of the Black Crowes, Ryan Adams, Win Butler of Arcade Fire, Alex Kapranos of Franz Ferdinand, Lúcio Maia of Nação Zumbi, Roy Buchanan, Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top, Thom Yorke, and Jonny Greenwood of Radiohead, singer-songwriter Kim Ralls, Chris Shiflett of Foo Fighters, The Edge of U2 and Tab Benoit as well as Lee Ranaldo of Sonic Youth's modified "Jazzblasters" which featured "wide range" pickups on modified Fender Jazzmaster guitars.

Market value

Due the use of the Wide Range Humbucker by both old and modern groups, such as Sonic Youth and Franz Ferdinand respectively, and the fact that reissue FWRH pickups sound different from original vintage pickups, demand has grown for the original pickup, leading to high prices and slim availability. The value has risen from a mere $75 in the late 90's to an average of $375 in 201



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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,960 Member Since:20/01/2011

#194 [url]

Mar 15 17 6:48 PM

My favourite telecasters have mostly been custom shop Schecters; either put together by Rudy's in NY or Chandler's in London (Kew). 
Only a few late 50's Fenders I've recorded beat them sonically. 

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#195 [url]

Mar 15 17 6:50 PM

Interesting photos here:

http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/repairs/WRHB-ri/


I have reworked well over a hundred of these over the past 6 years, here is a pictorial of the differences between a Vintage Wide Range Humbucker and the reissue version. After you see these pictures it will be clear to you why they dont sound the same. To me it is a kin to putting Grape Soda in a Coke can. Yeah they both are Soda, and maybe they both taste good, but when you want Coke, Grape wont do. I can rework your Reissue WR back to vintage specs for $150. That consists or my standard rewind rate of $60 per bobbin, and $30 for the threaded magnets, new custom bobbins, and reflector plate. You will be very happy with the results.

Here are a couple other reworks: Proto 1 Proto 2

repair

The covers are the same, Vintage is the top pickup

repair

The reissue bobbins are smaller, and the wax soaked fiber wrap are used to bulk the coil out to the cover.

repair

The RI is heavily potted, the Vintage is unpotted

repair

The reissue pickup uses steel screws, and sits on a bar magnet. The Vintage uses CuNiFe threaded rod magnets. This makes a SERIOUS difference in tone. Other than the 3x3 pole pieces it is a Gibson style humbucker, and NOTHING like a vintage WRHB

repair

Bottoms

repair

Left steel screw, right CuNiFe threaded magnet.


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harland

Gold Finger

Posts: 931 Member Since:05/02/2011

#196 [url]

Mar 15 17 8:16 PM

I think if someone wants a telecaster for what it is renowned for and best at delivering the Tele mojo, they will stay well away from the thinlines. They are different but in no way better afaic.

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,404 Member Since:04/02/2011

#197 [url]

Mar 15 17 8:29 PM

A Thinline is a different animal for sure. "Telecaster" in name only, sort of how a Les Paul junior is very different from a Les Paul standard, but very much a valid instrument in its own right.

brad allen williams

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,189 Member Since:20/01/2011

#200 [url]

Mar 15 17 10:34 PM

soapfoot wrote:
A Thinline is a different animal for sure. "Telecaster" in name only, sort of how a Les Paul junior is very different from a Les Paul standard, but very much a valid instrument in its own right.

I don't know... the original 1968/69 is virtually identical except the shape of the pickguard and the f-hole...

I'm working with an artist who has 4-5 great teles, including a 1968 Thinline it's virtually identical to his 1966 tele.. except that it it has F tuners that are nickel...

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