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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,112 Member Since:23/10/2013

#21 [url]

Sep 15 15 11:01 AM

fenris wrote:
I've miked toms by pointing a SDC at the shell, angled downward, and it sounds fine. Solves a lot of placement and leakage problems. Does anyone else mic the shell, or am I out of my mind? (Don't answer that.)

Sure.

I rarely mic toms, but on occasions where I mic snare, I often put it on the side, with the null pointing at the hat, and kind of use the body of the snare to block sound from the toms and kick...if that seems to be what sounds good. You can usually get more isolation under the snare, but the side can get a good mix of the thwack from the top, and the rattle from the snares, and still have a peak transient that jives with the overhead.

It just depends on what seems to be the most useful sound, and how it combines with the overhead(s). Sometimes the bleed isn't as big a deal as whatever other tone is gained by putting the mic in a position where more bleed happens.

I don't mean this in a "matter of fact" kinda way... it's just what seems to work to my perception, maybe other people think it sounds like ass. There are certainly opinions in this thread that carry more weight than mine in this area!



 

Last Edited By: gtoledo3 Sep 15 15 11:04 AM. Edited 1 time.

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John Eppstein

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,221 Member Since:31/05/2015

#22 [url]

Sep 15 15 6:56 PM

gtoledo3 wrote:

fenris wrote:
I've miked toms by pointing a SDC at the shell, angled downward, and it sounds fine. Solves a lot of placement and leakage problems. Does anyone else mic the shell, or am I out of my mind? (Don't answer that.)

Sure.

I rarely mic toms, but on occasions where I mic snare, I often put it on the side, with the null pointing at the hat, and kind of use the body of the snare to block sound from the toms and kick...if that seems to be what sounds good. You can usually get more isolation under the snare, but the side can get a good mix of the thwack from the top, and the rattle from the snares, and still have a peak transient that jives with the overhead.


 

For the last couple of years I've been micing the snare from the side, about halfway down the shell pretty much straight in, offset a bit from the vent, using an old modular C451/CK1 +10 db pad, hat in the null. Gives a good balance between top and bottom and sounds like a snare drum. Recently scored a KM84, looking forward to using that on a session this Saturday...

Rest of the kit is miced with Weedy's take on a Gyn Johns, more or less.

For years and years I used to close mic everything but it doesn't sound right to me anymore.

Last Edited By: John Eppstein Sep 15 15 6:59 PM. Edited 1 time.

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Iggick

Silverado

Posts: 216 Member Since:24/11/2014

#23 [url]

Sep 15 15 9:24 PM

"Rest of the kit is miced with Weedy's take on a Gyn Johns, more or less."

Any link or further info on this?
Did a search but couldn't find anything.

Thanks!

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fenris

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,450 Member Since:26/01/2011

#24 [url]

Sep 16 15 1:42 AM

I can get a good tom sound with the mic right up to the shell, but it doesn't work on snare. Needs to be further back apparently.

Last Edited By: fenris Sep 16 15 1:45 AM. Edited 1 time.

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bigbone

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Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#25 [url]

Sep 16 15 3:20 AM

Like it or not .with some style of music ,in tense and crowded arrangement.you need to mic the toms if you want 
to hear them.the 3 mic set-up doesn't work all the time.

JN

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John Eppstein

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Posts: 1,221 Member Since:31/05/2015

#26 [url]

Sep 16 15 6:21 AM

Iggick wrote:
"Rest of the kit is miced with Weedy's take on a Gyn Johns, more or less."

Any link or further info on this?
Did a search but couldn't find anything.

Thanks!

There's quite a bit on another forum that we both frequent but I don't know what the rules are here about cross posting. I'm sure if you ask Weedy he'll be more than happy to tell you about it.

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injured ear

Silverado

Posts: 79 Member Since:20/02/2012

#27 [url]

Sep 16 15 12:28 PM

If you want to stick to 57s (also would recommend Beta 56a) you can do a 90degree modification with easy installation this way:
http://www.granelliaudiolabs.com/order/
(converting 3 of your own 57s is probably cheaper than a purchasing single Beta 56a)

Also, try Sennheiser e604. Combined with a 90degree XLR it makes for a very low profile. The stock clip on adaptors don't give you much options for positioning, but they will go on any stand/clip you can figure out. I find them to be the best bang/buck tom mics aside from going with a set of used 57s. 
A 3 pack goes for $350 on eBay.

Greg Thompson

www.injured-ear.com

Last Edited By: injured ear Sep 16 15 12:31 PM. Edited 1 time.

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John Eppstein

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Posts: 1,221 Member Since:31/05/2015

#28 [url]

Sep 16 15 4:24 PM

fenris wrote:
I can get a good tom sound with the mic right up to the shell, but it doesn't work on snare. Needs to be further back apparently.

I back it off maybe 4 inches, give or take.

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John Eppstein

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Posts: 1,221 Member Since:31/05/2015

#29 [url]

Sep 16 15 4:32 PM

bigbone wrote:
Like it or not .with some style of music ,in tense and crowded arrangement.you need to mic the toms if you want 
to hear them.the 3 mic set-up doesn't work all the time.

JN

Like, oh, maybe Led Zepplin? (raises eyebrow quizzically...)
 

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compasspnt

Diamond Forever

Posts: 21,178 Member Since:08/01/2011

#30 [url]

Sep 16 15 5:21 PM

Well, in some more dense productions than LZ, you might certainly have to close mic toms to have them poke out.

LZ is not a good example of that.

Hardly a crowded arrangement," for the most part.

BTW, Jean is a highly respected and serious session drummer, and would know of what he speaks on this topic.



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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,112 Member Since:23/10/2013

#31 [url]

Sep 16 15 5:35 PM

I think of the close mic stuff as giving the drummer their "lead" sound… just like how you might want to jack up the guitar sound a notch for a particular part. It's just that it may not be needed for many styles of music, or you may be able to accomplish a similar sonic effect other ways.

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John Eppstein

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Posts: 1,221 Member Since:31/05/2015

#33 [url]

Sep 16 15 9:53 PM

compasspnt wrote:
Well, in some more dense productions than LZ, you might certainly have to close mic toms to have them poke out.


LZ is not a good example of that.


Hardly a crowded arrangement," for the most part.

BTW, Jean is a highly respected and serious session drummer, and would know of what he speaks on this topic.

Thanks, good to know.

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#34 [url]

Sep 17 15 12:29 AM

compasspnt wrote:
Well, in some more dense productions than LZ, you might certainly have to close mic toms to have them poke out.


LZ is not a good example of that.


Hardly a crowded arrangement," for the most part.

BTW, Jean is a highly respected and serious session drummer, and would know of what he speaks on this topic.


Thank's Terry for your kind words.

JN
 

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#36 [url]

Sep 17 15 12:41 AM

John Eppstein wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Like it or not .with some style of music ,in tense and crowded arrangement.you need to mic the toms if you want 
to hear them.the 3 mic set-up doesn't work all the time.

JN

Like, oh, maybe Led Zepplin? (raises eyebrow quizzically...)
 

I just did a session yesterday,Pop power ballad, for a famous singer knowly worldwild that i can't mention for copyright reason.and 
there were NO WAY we could have done the tracks without toms mic......

JN

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audiowonderland

Silverado

Posts: 241 Member Since:21/02/2011

#37 [url]

May 10 16 9:02 AM

injured ear wrote:
If you want to stick to 57s (also would recommend Beta 56a) you can do a 90degree modification with easy installation this way:
http://www.granelliaudiolabs.com/order/
(converting 3 of your own 57s is probably cheaper than a purchasing single Beta 56a)

Also, try Sennheiser e604. Combined with a 90degree XLR it makes for a very low profile. The stock clip on adaptors don't give you much options for positioning, but they will go on any stand/clip you can figure out. I find them to be the best bang/buck tom mics aside from going with a set of used 57s. 
A 3 pack goes for $350 on eBay.

Nice to see this thread still around.  I went with 57's because frankly, they were the most budget friendly. I "unpacked" the kit a bit by raisingthe cymbals and making the necessary room to git them in.

The nice side effect has been the discovery of the Audix i5 on snare drum. It adds a nice bite and cleans up a little low mid in a way I really like. Much less EQ required now.  The other fun part is how good the 57's sound on the toms. A basic PDP kit with clear ambassadors top and bottom mic'd with 57's is supposed to be meh at best if the internet pundits are to be taken at their word. Most definitely not the case. The toms are just phenomenal.  I don't question that some better pre's etc could improve it even further but my tom sound is far from being a weak spot. 

It never ceases to amaze me the results you can get with the most basic gear if you do the right things with it and its a lot of fun learning what that is. Sure I would love to have a killer Neve/SSL/API board but I probably couldn't afford the electric bill to run the damn thing anyway... LOL

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audiowonderland

Silverado

Posts: 241 Member Since:21/02/2011

#38 [url]

May 10 16 9:33 AM

The other item I forgot to mention was discovering the advantages of backing the mics off 3-5". The toms were much less boomy and had a lot more "depth" for lack of a better term. It seems to be true in many applications. My electric guitar sounds improved tremendously by applying the same concept and I suspect it will work on a lot of things that are traditionally close miced. I am sure this is not news to anyone here but its the kind of stuff that ends up really making a difference in a mix. Much more than what eq or reverb I choose.

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fenris

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,450 Member Since:26/01/2011

#39 [url]

May 10 16 5:40 PM

I've been experimenting with phase manipulation as an alternative to EQ. I miced the toms with a LDC so they're very bassy, but I miced the snare with something midrangey like an SM57. This produces different results when they're mixed with the overhead. I nudged the tom tracks to line up with the overhead, then reversed the polarity. It canceled out the midrange, but not the bass or treble, so I got a huge tom sound. For the snare, I tried something different. The snare had a nasty ring at 500 Hz. I nudged it to line up with the overhead, then moved it back by a number of samples equal to 1/2 wavelength at 500 Hz. It canceled out the ring without affecting the fundamental.

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