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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since: 21/01/2011

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Feb 7 15 7:17 PM

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Ack, I am sure we have all done it. But have you ever been totally into a song, writing it, recording it, mixing it and pseudo mastering it? totally tinking it sounds fantastic? only to take a break and 2 hours later listen and just ......retch! happened to me today. the thing that bums me out is all the time and energy seems so wasted now. TOmorrow i will dive back in and zero everything and start ove3r.....

or should I?

is it better to start form scratch? or take parts that work and sound great and try and build around those? some of the parts really work, and others bleh.

so thats the question of the day here? start from zero, or try and patch around great parts?
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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,181 Member Since:23/10/2013

#1 [url]

Feb 7 15 8:00 PM

I would try to identify if it's something so fundamental as the tempo or key that are leading to it not sounding as good as possible. If so, maybe then a start from scratch is warranted.

If I had a hard time figuring out exactly what it was that I wasn't enjoying about it, I'd probably just let it simmer and move onto something else. What happens to those, for me, is that inevitably I didn't like the lyrics so they get rewritten, or I wind up using the verse/chorus/bridge/whatever with some other idea… getting rid of whatever the problem part was. Or I come back to it a week or so later and go "why was I ever working on this anyway?".

You might take the song back down to acoustic guitar or keyboard, and vocals, and see if you're still liking it - to identify on if it's the song itself that needs editing (or abandoning), or if the recording/playing needs work.

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7seas

Gold Finger

Posts: 261 Member Since:13/05/2013

#3 [url]

Feb 8 15 6:48 AM

It is not time wasted if, like me, you are learning your craft. I've found that being musician, mixer and producer is hard. Over the past couple of years it's got easier as my sense of what I want has got clearer. Now I always go for the feel for the song and my ability to record something usable has improved. Hence it's easier to mix. Mastering is not my forte but if you don't like the mix, you won't like the master.
Oh and be patient.

Richard

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hank alrich

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,755 Member Since:28/01/2011

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Feb 8 15 9:06 AM

I would step back far enough to see if the song was worthy, or if I had deluded myself that it would be. Does it survive handily if you just sing it and play it, without any "production"? If so, a little refinement, new ideas about framing it, and onward, through the fog. If it does not work all by its lonesome self, I would throw it out and start over.

hank alrich
http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#5 [url]

Feb 8 15 9:50 AM

Thanks all, I haven't listened today yet. we will see where we land when i do. I def think the song is strong, the problem i think is this version has the new lyrics, or real ones and i got so used to the scratch made up vocals (i just sing anything when writing so i don't forget the melody) that is sounds a little odd to me, a little different timing in places, syllables etc. i also added harmony and BG vocals and those i need to get used to as well.

in addition to all of that i think i have some distorted tracks in there, and not in a good way.

this is also a "Rock" song, and i am having trouble with distorted guitars and parts that area also distorted and blending them. i have some nice harmonics in the chorus but over the bed of distrited rhythm n othing stands out. anyway, off to learn some new horizons!

i think this is one where i will listen once and go with my gut feeling and see where i go. i knwo i have to solo every track though and find some of the problem ones .

i will keep you posted!

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

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Feb 8 15 10:22 AM

alll righty! i just listened and that was worse than i thought! lol

there is some strange pumpin thing going on, at least on my dropbox version, which isnt there in my studio. its horrible! the cadence is off with the new lyrics and it doesnt piece and flow like i wanted. this is a song to where it has what i call overlapping vocals, where on phrase on a set of tracks ends and the other set is starting before it ends and it was supposed to be dreamy or at least sounds cool

i think this is a tear it back to the beginning

so weird to i knwo my levels were good, i just dont get it, i am hoping i dont have to re cut all the electric guitar parts.

i do not want anyone to take time out of a busy day but if you want to hear what i am talking about this is where it is now.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95885075/Lost%20in%20the%20Color%20blue-fin2.mp3

to list what i am hearing.

1) opening seems ok
2) chug chug into first guitars seems distorted for some reason
3) first verse sounds weird to me, to sparse?
4) the first bridge is HORRIBLE and the worst thing for me, acoustics to loud, vocals to mush, and they dont flow into the first chorus all that well.
5) first chorus seems ok except BG vocals take away from the main vocal high part, wish i could blend better
6) second verse works for me
7) second bridge is very close but vocals to loud and all that weird pumping????
8) second chorus BG vocals that come in to much, need to take them out, was hoping to drive and build the song
9) solo sounds verby and weird and it was dry and i literally have no plugs or verb on it, there was a LITTLE verb on the kemper patch but its the lead sound i always use and its never sounded this bad
10) breakdown after solo, acoustic and vocals bad
11) the whole out of the song works for me but its to boomy, and slushy, i so wish i could make things stand out! i put high pass filters on things and it seems to help

oh and that horrible cymabl sound is me playing it off my korg keyboard lol

anyway, sorry for the rant. if i have some time today i will try again!

thanks all!

Update: - i got back in for about an hour wiht my son playing guitar behind me lol (he's 8), i think its a little better, but now my drums seem gone, wth.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/95885075/Lost%20in%20the%20Color%20blue-fin4.mp3

 

Last Edited By: trock Feb 8 15 1:32 PM. Edited 1 time.

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fenris

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,450 Member Since:26/01/2011

#8 [url]

Feb 8 15 9:59 PM

The sounds and the mix are fine. Vocal is a bit too bright and compressed. The biggest problem is that most of the song alternates between two chords in a very monotonous way. The guitar solo has a nice chord progression, just make the whole song like that. :D

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

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Feb 9 15 9:40 AM

totally true

i have had that opening riff forever. i came up with the verse not to long ago and it has G,C,Am and then it flips to a G and C picked then the walk down and into the chorus which is G and C as well but with the harmonics

i think the end is to repetitive for sure

the main vocal needs to sing something different, i will try and work something out there

i will try backing off the compressor thingy on the CLA plug, its a slider lol

thanks for taking the time!

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,181 Member Since:23/10/2013

#10 [url]

Feb 9 15 10:22 AM

First off, I like the song!

Some ideas -

-The high G note of the octave guitar part in the intro sounds a little flat to me. This is one of the biggest spell breakers for me.

-When more instruments "kick in" around :49, I'd try to make sure they all hit on the "1 beat" evenly. This is second biggest spell breaker for me.

-When the riff comes back around 1:11, I might try to get a better lock between the rhythm guitar and the kick drum, possibly changing that pattern. Where the octave riff hits two low notes, then a high note, I would see if it grooves a little better by changing the kick so that it hits where those low notes fall in the guitar riff. Now it goes "boom bap boom boom"… maybe something more like "boom boom bap boom boom". Or just tightening up the pocket between guitar riff and drums in that place might be enough.

-I'm not a big reverb guy, I'd probably go with less reverb on those tight strums in the verse parts, maybe none… maybe going towards more reverb in the solo part or choruses.

-When you have the breakdown with acoustic, and there is a vocal in the center, it then shifts to two (or more) vocals hard panned l/r. To me, it sounds like it might transition better if that vocal in the center kept on, on the line where there are the two hard panned vocals before things kick back in. Maybe along with the two panned vocals. That may not be how to "solve it"… for me, the problem is just that it seems jarring. Maybe just something to finesse that transition somehow.

-The countermelody at the end - the "I cannot see you, let's walk away"… maybe try to get that a bit more in the pocket, as well as watch out on the pitch of "you" and "away". It is maybe louder than needed too? I think it's that my ear isn't sure what's supposed to be paying attention to - that line or the other melody line. Maybe you could bring one group down, and then swap which one is dominant after a repetition or two.

There are just my opinions, and maybe I'd think differently if I heard it some other time. I listened to the "fin5" version.

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#11 [url]

Feb 9 15 3:35 PM

Hey

Thanks for taking the time to detail all of that out! i know it takes a bunch of time away from something you would proabbly rather be doing so I appreciate it.

let me go down the list and add my responses (but first let me say you are so right on much of this)

1) let me check the guitar, i tuned it before i cut it but i will check it again. do you mean the intro guitar with the effects on it? or the distorted rocking one?

2) i am playing everything and bass etc is not my forte and i think i am off on the bass in places. i will check that though for sure on the one.

3) this is the biggee, i would LOVE to get the rhythm and bass tigter, but i am restricted to the drum loop i am using, there arent anymore of them of that kit and that session (from Drums on Demand) and i cant add to them cause they are WAV files, so i am literally stuck with that pattern. i would LOVE to have had real drums but its not possible in my time and setup

4) the verse guitars are a patch profile from the kemper i use direct, i can easily go back and re cut them with a differnt patch, or just roll the reverb back on that one. 

5) good call on the 2 vocals coming in, i forgot to put the main vocal back in for that! its supposed to be the lead singer and the 2 BG vocals! lol

6) thats great advice on the end! those intertwhining vocals i love but i dont know how to mix them properly. i am going to fix the pitch, and do some voume adjustments. 

i am also thinking about the main vocal at the end being more ad lib, i think it is monoton e and just sits there. i will see what i can come up with

personally i dont think the song is as strong as it could be, it sort of came together in pieces and i hope i can make it pretty good in the end

thanks again for taking the time!

tim
 

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,181 Member Since:23/10/2013

#12 [url]

Feb 9 15 4:04 PM

Hey Tim, yes I meant the very first intro guitar - the one that sounds cleaner. To me, when the distortion comes in, I don't hear that flatness on the G note. However, maybe that's a side effect from some kind of subtle chorus or detune effect, now that you mention there is an effect on it.

I think my comment about the reverb is definitely a matter of taste thing. It just seemed like for the type of part it could sound more dry or totally dry and it would make each hit have more impact.

Are you on a Mac? If so, you might want to checkout Logic and the built in drummer/drum machine stuff. There are definitely audio drums loops, but there are plenty of MIDI pattern starting points or "intelligent drummer" mode, that trigger real or synth sounds via the MIDI pattern. I prefer to work with that kind of thing when demoing out songs, because I can quickly edit a pattern to do exactly what I want, or just make a new one…with the sound quality ending up the same as the AIFF/Wav loops or better (since they aren't being time stretched). Or look out for something similar to what I'm describing for whatever you're working on.

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#13 [url]

Feb 9 15 4:15 PM

the intro riff was recorded in a different session now that i think of it. i bet you it was a little out of tune and i never really noticed. i will tune and recut, it will take no time at all

man, i have a roland TD15vk set, and EZdrummer 2 just sitting here ( i use cubase 8) and i would LOVE to knwo how better to do midi drums! i use DOD because they are fast and already mixed, but the downfall is you cannot tweak.

if i have time i may try and get that going, i am a decent enough drummer to actually play what i want anyway, and i know, although i dont know how to, then edit them in the song so they are perfect.

then the problem though is mixing them, but it would be fun to learn, i can split the drums out to individual tracks as well, but i have such a shoratge of time that for nwo just dropping these wav files in gets me 90 % there. but its on my list to figure out because i totally get what you mean by tightening up the kick, the bass, and the rhythm parts

thanks again for listening, i will post an update this weekend when i get back in!

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