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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,181 Member Since:23/10/2013

#21 [url]

Mar 20 15 10:36 AM

To me it sounds like one of two things, or a combo of…

What tb av is saying about the virtual instrument likely loading some other FX on the channel, seems possible. When you bounce, maybe you aren't hearing them because they aren't inserted on the normal audio channel... or maybe through some series of events, you are bouncing with the FX and then listening through them again because they ARE still inserted.

The other things that seems possible, is that this is some kind of patch where you hit a note and then some randomization, or other sequence of arpeggiated notes happens afterwards. If that's the case, I don't know what the fix would be exactly. I try to stay away from those kind of sound patches!

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tb av

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,155 Member Since:24/04/2011

#22 [url]

Mar 20 15 11:38 AM

Yes, that Omnishpere has a rather complex arpeggio section and also some granular section that can do pitch change as well... but even still... I am under the impression that he can simply 'play' and at some point of that evolving patch he hears exactly what he wants... all the proper notes just like he wants them..... but when he records that 'performance' it's different... ie.. not what he actually heard.

that's the part I can't understand. I get that synth can be doing crazy thing that takes a long time to come around to what you want.... but if you actually hear it... if you sit there long enough to hear it produce the sound you wanted..... then simply recording it to an audio track should not be an issue. It shouldn't produce a track different from what he just heard. ... and that's what it sounds like he is saying.

IOW...

MIDI - actual notes are A B C
Synth - plays all sorts of notes but at some point actually plays A B C just like what he wants.
Render that track -- he ends up with something other than A B C anywhere in that track --- this is what leads me to think he didn't record the output of that synth ... or he's monitoring something other than the output of the synth track in the first place.....

"and it plays fine and is an audio wav file, but it didnt keep the characteristics of the plugin and midi part for some reason. "
You see what I mean... he heard and selected the time segments of the evolving synth patch he was hearing that were the 'keeper' parts..... but his render was something else. It wasn't the synth output he hears.

That makes me think he is recording 'pre' something... also back a message or two he seemed to elude to the other tracks having some impact on this synth track... I may be wrong about that but if the other tracks were patched to modulate that synth and they were muted for the single track render... that would give you a different sound as well.

"the omnisphere patch i think plays when the song is playing so the part is actually changing from what i originally recorded and i have to wait for the plug to come back around."

that's the part I never understood. I would expect the Omni part to play but it almost seesm he is saying the rest of the song is somehow influencing what the Omni does. Again I may be wrong on that.

Last Edited By: tb av Mar 20 15 11:51 AM. Edited 2 times.

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,181 Member Since:23/10/2013

#23 [url]

Mar 20 15 11:53 AM

Yeah, double checking the routing seems in order.

What works for me is to just write the lines with a piano sound (or maybe even a basic mono synth, depending on the type of part), and then find the specific string patch for that line after establishing that the phrase works. Then I fine tune the MIDI part - whether it's quantizing or manually editing the notes. Sometimes I bounce to an audio file, sometimes not.

Maybe there is some problem caused by what logic the plugin uses to determine the start of the arpeggiation pattern. As in, you may be at a different place in the arpeggiation cycle by the time the spot comes around if you record from the top, vs. if you punch in at a given bar. Just a guess.

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trock

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Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#24 [url]

Mar 20 15 11:56 AM

Hey

Sorry to cause all this confusion. What TB AV said is very close to what is happening, or what i think is happening. I am not a midi/VSTi whiz and this is literally the first time i have really used omnisphere. This Patch, or Sound, is a LEAD SAW VIOLIN lead patch, whatever that means, but it cycles thru different sounds of the same sound, if that makes sense. When i use the MIDI controllerkeyboard and "play" the part in the song where it needs to be its not always the same sound becasue it seems this patch has a cyle it has to roll thru, part of which is exactly what i want and what i accidently first heard when i played it. i didn't even know it would change til i started re playing the song and discovered that the sound was different almsot ever time. 

I have been digging into that patch in omnisphere trying to just lock it down to the sound i want but i cant figure that out yet either

does this help? basically i play omnisphere just like anyone would with a midi controller and it records the midi notes and uses omnisphere as the sound, the problkem is that this patch or sound isnt just the little sound i like, its a revolving cycle that includes the part i like but then keeps rolling the more its played and then comes back around to the sound i like. so this part is played maybe 8 times in the song and it just keeps revolving around and around and at times is perfect and other times its not because while its the same patch its sound has changed because thats what the patch actually is.

i will try and post a snippet of just this part and how it changes if i can get that 

i guess one of the questions is, in omnisphere can you lock down part of a patch to just the part you want? that might be easier than all of this. 

thanks all!

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tb av

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Posts: 1,155 Member Since:24/04/2011

#25 [url]

Mar 20 15 12:52 PM

the answer to your omni question is maybe and maybe not. there could be a all manner of things that cause it to cycle. From note name to note velocity to note volume and that's just the easy stuff. there could be some LFO that causes them to cycle. they could be using the that step sequencer ... if that is the case you could -maybe- tell it to stop stepping.... but all that can be very complex. That thing, I'm sure is like climbing Mt Everest if it's remotely like Absynth which I think it is regarding complexity.

But you have two issues here. The morph of Omni which you know is happening but you are able to identify the good from bad. So say ideally you wanted 60 bars of that one sound you like but you only hear it happen 12 times in teh full song length.

So you selected I/O points for your render and caught those 12 segments.

But now it seems you are saying, yes those were the 12 spots of good sound but upon replaying them as simply an audio wav now they simply don't sound the same. so you had....
OMNI - playing 12 instances of 'good' out of 60 total.
RENDER - those 12
12 Audio clips - when placed in project now no longer sound the same 'good' --- when in fact, they should have sounded identical.... that's a whole new issue beyond Omni. That is a technical Audio Render issue. At least imo, based on what I think you are doing/saying.

Those 12 snippets you captured should sound exactly like the parts of the Omni performance that you liked...

Exactly unless --- the output of Omni gets additional processing. Or the new snippets get processed by some means as you listen back to them.

IOW, you should be able to place those snippets on a blank track. Mute Omni and hit play. you should hear exactly what you heard in Omni minus the altered stuff you didn't like. then you could copy/paste those clips to fill your 60 tracks as desired.

That's why everyone told you to render your midi to audio. When you are making your track you change notes, voice, etc. Then when you say... ok, that's it, that's just what I want.... that's when you render it to audio to preserve it exactly as you hear it. As though a musician was playing it live on the track.

Do you see that even if you figure out Omni, you will still have a render issue ( if I am understanding you ) until you figure why your renders sound different from your developed midi 'performance' track? You should be able to have those two things.... the Omni track playing live ... and the rendered audio file from it.... and toggle back and forth on solo/mute and not hear a difference for any given exact same time segment.

Now on yours 01:05:28 may not sound like 03:07:22 for the same midi notes due to morphing patch,,,, but 01:05:28 should sound identical on the rendered audio AND the live Omni playing. ... it sounds like you are saying it doesn't. 01:05:28 RENDER = 01:05:28 OMNI  --- no matter what the actual sound is at that time ... they should be indentical.

btw - OT: this is why I say it may be difficult chasing down what Omni is doing. This is the developer of Absynth and this is 'one note' ... https://soundcloud.com/brian-clevinger-1/dissolving-ice-tunnels  and I'm sure Omni is equally as complex in different ways.

Oh, btw... LEAD SAW VIOLIN means it's a lead voice which is usually bold and it's a 'saw'tooth wave and obviously a violin which could be sampled or generated depending on how Omni does that... So in synth talk you will see things like "saw" pad, "square" pad, "sine" pad ... they are telling you the generalized character of the patch. Sawtooth, squarewave, sinewave. the "lead" tells you it's probably not subtle like say "atmosphere" ... like 'ethereal sine rain' kinda gives you an idea of what to expect

Last Edited By: tb av Mar 20 15 1:13 PM. Edited 3 times.

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trock

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Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#26 [url]

Mar 21 15 11:30 AM

wow

thanks so much for your help, you really know this stuff and you have pretty much hit the note on the head

i should add nothing else is contributing to this. the omnisphere track is alone and its not feeding any other plugs or effects, so this is it all alone

ai am going to try and work on it some today, and honestly if worse come to worse i will just let it go how it is, even when its nto perfect it gives it osme of the effect i want

thanks a ton for all the help everyone. i am def learning and getting closer

i will keep you posted

thanks!

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tb av

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Posts: 1,155 Member Since:24/04/2011

#27 [url]

Mar 21 15 11:47 AM

Sorry I don;t know anything about cubase but if you can figure how to route the output of the track that plays the 'audio' from omnisphere to another blank track armed to record.

IOW, somewhere in Cubase you should see the meters jumping while that Omni patch plays... regular audio meters... not little red lines or LEDs like midi data. It will look like normal audio metering. The track itself may be blank but it has meters moving. If you can -send (patch)- that track to a new blank track and arm that new track to record.

Rewind, press record/play... sit back. When it's over that new track should contain what you heard from Omni and then you should be able to go in and cut the pieces you want to keep. Just paste them into yet another new track... then mute the Omin track and the track you just recorded from Omni. Let play the track that you just pasted data to. To be honest someone on a cubase forum could probably tell you a much easier way or figure why your render does not match what you hear. It's probably something very simple like simply switching the record source via a simple little mouse click.

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trock

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,073 Member Since:21/01/2011

#28 [url]

Mar 22 15 12:51 PM

Thanks TB - i tried alot today and in the end changed patches lol, i found another SAW LEAD that wasnt quite as good but didnt have the revolving sound paradigm and it works ok

i need to take alot of what you and others have taught me and dig into things like omnisphere - its got a ton of great sounds i could really use. someone was saying i can set up one instance of it and route it to like 8 tracks and control them all seperately so i dont crush my CPU with 8 instances etc

while i love my kronos i am gaining a respect for these soft synths as well

thanks again for all the help, sorry i derailed this as well from mixing string, which i still need to try and do next.

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