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mikiebahamas

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Sep 9 15 2:46 PM

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Hey Guys!

Doing some research for a friend.  I'm looking for a 16/24 channel mixer and (2) mains and (2) sub woofers.  I would like ease (analog) of use, great sound and good value...any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike
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John Eppstein

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#1 [url]

Sep 9 15 3:07 PM

Midas is still making the Venice consoles. The better powered JBL compact speakers are quite nice.(PRX700 series, SRX800 series - avoid the Eons.)

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mario i

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Sep 10 15 2:17 PM

I use and like Midas. If I was to purchase a console it would be the Midas Venice 32F.

As for FOH speakers... I have been impressed with the new line at Electro-Voice.
JBL is still at top of their game.

Depending on the size of the venue, I would consider a 2x15" with horn each side as opposed to Sub plus top.

The Sub / Top on a pole is great for DJ's and portability, but really sucks AFAIK on a complete system.

If you can afford top plus subs, go with 2x 12" plus horn top and a good 2x 15" or 2x 18" per side sub.
If you do go with such a system make sure it's at least bi-amped, or better yet tri-amped and properly installed.

Placing subs where convenient doesn't mean they'll sound good.
They need to be time aligned with the mains.

Again this all depends or your budget, so shop wisely.

As a side note, I am not a fan of Line Array for small venues.
For line array to worker properly....there must actually be more than few in the line!!!

I've worked with systems which contain only 2 per side and are terrible in the top end.
The system suffers from too much top end, and subs are just not cutting it in the frequencies where the line is not working.
I've found there's a gap between the 150Hz - 500 Hz range. If not EQ'd properly the system takes on a piercing sound and gets
very fatiguing....

M

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mario i

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Sep 10 15 2:33 PM

One thing to keep in mind, if you fo go with an analogue console is the peripheral rack mount gear you need.

A Stereo EQ for mains, 15 band is minimal (or good para-metric), and possibly a limiter.
A 31 band EQ for every monitor.

1 or 2 FX units.

Possibly a few compressors/gates for Channel inserts where needed.

A good digital console will alleviate the need to purchase all that.

You could look into the Soundcraft Si Impact. Very reasonable cost, and it'll have everything that's needed.

M

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John Eppstein

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Sep 10 15 5:30 PM

mario i wrote:
One thing to keep in mind, if you fo go with an analogue console is the peripheral rack mount gear you need.

A Stereo EQ for mains, 15 band is minimal (or good para-metric), and possibly a limiter.
A 31 band EQ for every monitor.

1 or 2 FX units.

Possibly a few compressors/gates for Channel inserts where needed.

A good digital console will alleviate the need to purchase all that.

You could look into the Soundcraft Si Impact. Very reasonable cost, and it'll have everything that's needed.

M

15 bands are kinda "OK" for tone shaping but as system EQ you need 1/3 octave, especially for monitors. 
Depending on the size of the venue, I would consider a 2x15" with horn each side as opposed to Sub plus top.

The Sub / Top on a pole is great for DJ's and portability, but really sucks AFAIK on a complete system.

If you can afford top plus subs, go with 2x 12" plus horn top and a good 2x 15" or 2x 18" per side sub.
If you do go with such a system make sure it's at least bi-amped, or better yet tri-amped and properly installed.

Placing subs where convenient doesn't mean they'll sound good.
They need to be time aligned with the mains.

Again this all depends or your budget, so shop wisely.

As far as speakers are concerned it depends on your application.

If it's going to be installed in a venue doing a variety of music and loudish bands you're going to need more than if it's a portable PA for a moderate band doing small venues.

For an installed PA I personally do not favor powered speakers at all, although the larger SRX series JBL are quite good. The problem with powered speakers is that if a speaker or amp goes you've lost the whole thing. I prefer a set of moderate sized concert grade speakers and separate, Class AB power, but that's more expensive. I like an 18 in a folded horn, 2 light coned 15s or 12s and a 2 inch per side, double for a larger club.for loud rock bands.

If it's a really small venue then powered speakers and subwoofers are fine.

What is the exact application? Is this a house system or a band system? What sort of music?
 

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John Eppstein

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Sep 10 15 5:38 PM

mario i wrote:
One thing to keep in mind, if you fo go with an analogue console is the peripheral rack mount gear you need.

A Stereo EQ for mains, 15 band is minimal (or good para-metric), and possibly a limiter.
A 31 band EQ for every monitor.

1 or 2 FX units.

Possibly a few compressors/gates for Channel inserts where needed.

A good digital console will alleviate the need to purchase all that.

You could look into the Soundcraft Si Impact. Very reasonable cost, and it'll have everything that's needed.

M

I HATE digital consoles for small, on the fly nightclub gigs.

Don't like 'em for bigger stuff, either, really, unless you have the luxury of programming all your stuff in advance.

For situations where you have someone different every night - or 3 someones, questionable ability to soundcheck, and acts that don't do an utterly predictable show digital consoles with their nested menus to access everything and lack of one knob per function capability impede the workflow.

The other problem with digital consoles is that no two companies really have the same interface, so if you have visiting engineers who haven't worked your particular board before it can be a problem. Anybody can get around on any analog console if they know anything at all.

I didn't intend to go into a diatribe against digital consoles, but Mike SPECIFICALLY asked about an analog console for ease of use. Digital consoles are not that.

Last Edited By: John Eppstein Sep 10 15 5:52 PM. Edited 3 times.

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mario i

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Sep 10 15 6:33 PM

John,

I don't know why you seem to be on the attack here on my last posts….

Have you actually read my post(s)?

1) I personally favour the Midas analogue console, but that does't stop me or any engineer using a digital.
And actually many venues house engineer will even use an iPad and be able to walk around the room
or fix Monitors while on stage with musicians. This is where it's at, and many bands expect it.

2) I said 15 band EQ was MINIMAL for Mains in orders words pref 31 band and a good Parametric can easily handle FOH duties in most Venues.
The line below said 31's for Monitors.

3) I never said anything about POWERED mains or Mons… I actually hate them. Doubles up wiring for nothing. Ditto for monitors.
Most of those powered things are a compromise of sound and function.

4) Mike did not SPECIFICALLY ask about an analogue console, he said "I would like ease (analog) of use, great sound and good value...any suggestions?"

The analogue part is in brackets - which I take to mean optional, and ease of use.
He did not cover EQ's FX etc., and therefore I gave him food for thought about the rack mount equipment needed to complete the system.

If someone is on a budget, I would much rather be given the choice of using a digital console than not have the gear I need to run sound.

And quite frankly, anybody who's used a digital console, or DAW for that mater can easily get a grip on a Digital console.

Many Large format Analogue consoles can be just as daunting if you are not familiar with it.
There are Mute Groups to consider, Global Pre/Post EQ switches in the Auxes etc.

Thinking - This is analogue therefore it must be easier is incorrect.

And please keep in mind, I have a large format analogue console in studio and a analogue live console.

M

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mario i

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Sep 10 15 6:42 PM

Furthermore, when I mentioned speakers I talking about EACH Cabinet having 2x 12" or 2x 15" drivers and a horn - PER SIDE, plus subs with 2x 15" or 2x 18" depending on tops used.

And my 3rd line says - "Depending on the size of the venue"

Last Edited By: mario i Sep 10 15 7:17 PM. Edited 1 time.

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tim halligan

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Sep 10 15 10:12 PM

I think we need some more info from Mikiebahamas' friend about exactly what he thinks he needs...

Portability.

Scalability.

Transportability...therefore covers/cases etc.

Budget!!!

Coverage required.

Venue size.

Existing infrastructure - multicores etc.

Ground stack or flown? Flying hardware required?

Until we get some better info, any answer we give is essentially useless.

Cheers,
Tim

An analogue brain in a digital world

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John Eppstein

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Sep 11 15 1:23 AM

mario i wrote:
John,

I don't know why you seem to be on the attack here on my last posts….

Have you actually read my post(s)?

1) I personally favour the Midas analogue console, but that does't stop me or any engineer using a digital.
And actually many venues house engineer will even use an iPad and be able to walk around the room
or fix Monitors while on stage with musicians. This is where it's at, and many bands expect it.

2) I said 15 band EQ was MINIMAL for Mains in orders words pref 31 band and a good Parametric can easily handle FOH duties in most Venues.
The line below said 31's for Monitors.

3) I never said anything about POWERED mains or Mons… I actually hate them. Doubles up wiring for nothing. Ditto for monitors.
Most of those powered things are a compromise of sound and function.

4) Mike did not SPECIFICALLY ask about an analogue console, he said "I would like ease (analog) of use, great sound and good value...any suggestions?"

The analogue part is in brackets - which I take to mean optional, and ease of use.
He did not cover EQ's FX etc., and therefore I gave him food for thought about the rack mount equipment needed to complete the system.

If someone is on a budget, I would much rather be given the choice of using a digital console than not have the gear I need to run sound.


M
 

Mike was the one asking about powered speakers, if I read his original post correctly.

He also asked about an analog console unless I misunderstand his use of the word "analog".

I've done many, many small venue shows with bands I've never seen before and I'll take analog over digital any time, an will continue to do so unless the companies can decide on a standardized interface. When I'm thrown into the thick of things the last thing I want to do is try to figure out an unfamiliar digital console with key functions buried in nested menus.
And quite frankly, anybody who's used a digital console, or DAW for that mater can easily get a grip on a Digital console.


DAW interfaces bug the hell out of me too, you you know something?

In the studio you have TIME to sift through nested menus and to deall with multiple screens. You can work arounde not being able to do simulataneous adjustments by using automation.

'Live, you can't.

Many Large format Analogue consoles can be just as daunting if you are not familiar with it.
There are Mute Groups to consider, Global Pre/Post EQ switches in the Auxes etc.

No, because on those consoles you don't HAVE to use those features. It's not the same as having to delve into a nested menu interface and try an figure out where they've buriede a particular setting when you need to adjust it RIGHT NOW!

Thinking - This is analogue therefore it must be easier is incorrect.

No, it's not. It's just that a lot of younger engineers have come up being used to the compromised workfloiw of a digital console. There are things I do on analog systems that are physically not possible on most digital systems. Like adjust two things in different sections at the same time. There are things that I do with analog Space Echos or, for that matter my ancient Roland SDE-100 DDLs that are not posswible on modern DDLs for the most part, and not on the delays built into digital consoles.

Being able to wander around with a Ipad is nice. (you can pretend to be mixing while chatting up chicks at the bar.) Being able to access functions IMMEDIATELY is crucial.

As far as tweaking monitors onstage, that's what monitor engineers are for. IF the FOH guy is onstage dealing with the mons he's neglecting FOH.
And please keep in mind, I have a large format analogue console in studio and a analogue live console.

Me, too.

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John Eppstein

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Sep 11 15 1:24 AM

tim halligan wrote:
I think we need some more info from Mikiebahamas' friend about exactly what he thinks he needs...

Portability.

Scalability.

Transportability...therefore covers/cases etc.

Budget!!!

Coverage required.

Venue size.

Existing infrastructure - multicores etc.

Ground stack or flown? Flying hardware required?

Until we get some better info, any answer we give is essentially useless.

Cheers,
Tim

Yes.

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mario i

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Sep 11 15 8:36 AM

John, yes you are misreading.

Mike did NOT ask for powered speakers, and NEVER did I suggest his friend get powered.

You suggested the powered JBL speakers.

You're assuming that someone with an iPad is there for fun, why does having an TOOL at your disposal make someone pretend to work?

Then you suddenly budgeted the gear and an extra person to run monitors in a small venue....which extremely rare, just because I mentioned
the option of using an iPad to adjust Monitors.

Here's food for thought, some of us are actual professionals who are there to work, and make things work, no matter
what the situation and really enjoy doing our jobs. Assuming that using an iPad (which I have yet to do, but will eventually) is
going to impress people, is dead wrong.

Last Edited By: mario i Sep 11 15 9:16 AM. Edited 1 time.

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mikiebahamas

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Sep 11 15 12:17 PM

Thanks guys. I know we here all have our own experiences. Frankly, I came here to get a diversity of opinion. I thank all of you for that!

It is for a venue outside in on the island of Eleuthera in someone's residence. It is not a club per say, although the size is a small club venue. They throw a few concerts a year, and wanted something small enough and versatile enough to adapt to any situation. I wanted brand names of quality gear, good bang for buck. You guys were very helpful.

I also need it to be portable, as their are many places to play (bars, clubs).

I already looked into the Midas VF24 and the JBL SRX series. The music is mostly rock (5 piece band) but can also vary. We are shooting a band film and want to also record (if possible) the shows through Pro Tools.

I was originally looking at Mackie (used in the past), but I know they always have issues. I also know their are better boards out there...hence Midas.

If you guys can think of anything else, or any other good products, i will be more than happy to do the research.

Thank all of you guys again.

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tim halligan

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Sep 11 15 1:47 PM

mikiebahamas wrote:
 We are shooting a band film and want to also record (if possible) the shows through Pro Tools.

...

If you guys can think of anything else, or any other good products, i will be more than happy to do the research.


 


Ok...for the recording side, you might want to take a look at the Allen & Heath Qu series mixers.

They are digital...but are about the closest thing to a straight drop-in replacement for analogue out there in my experience...but with all the usual digital acoutrements: dynamics on every channel, multiple built-in fx engines, graphics on outputs, etc.

They will do the 18 channels straight to hard drive routine, and will also stream all of the mic inputs to your DAW...all the way up to 32 channels.

Of course other digital boards will do this too, but as a walk-up-and-mix-with-almost-no-learning-curve digital console, the A & H is about as straightforward as it gets...and you have the whole "not a Behringer or Mackie" thing going for it too...

HTH

Cheers,
Tim

An analogue brain in a digital world

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wireline

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Posts: 4,120 Member Since:24/01/2011

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Sep 12 15 6:46 AM

Used the QSC cabinets some, and they are really REALLY good. Personal preference only, but I'm not a fan of anything that requires more than simply tweaking a single knob if said mixer is to be used from the bandstand. Taking hands off your instrument is to make an adjustment is bad enough but to have to scroll, push, etc, on a tiny screen is (for this guy) torture, really complicated by stage lights, and impossible when your group has an outdoor day gig.

I know it is beyond jurassic era thinking, but I also never feel overly confident when anywhere from 10-1000 people are all depending of my software to work...especially when there is no easy backup.

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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jaykadis

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Sep 12 15 12:30 PM

We've used four Yamaha DM-1000s and one DM-2000 for 10 years and never seen one software glitch. These mixers are at least as reliable as an analog board. Their user interfaces are not as obvious as an analog board but they make up for it in flexibility.

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mario i

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Sep 12 15 1:01 PM

A friend of mine has been running live sound at the biggest Western Festival in Quebec (St-Tite) for the last 9 years on a DM2000,
this year they've switched to it's "Mommy" as he calls it a PM5D.

M

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