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adam brown

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Dec 25 15 8:07 PM

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I've been in a big new Hobby Lobby recently, and I've seen so many interesting items there that I estimate are not only decorative, but could be sonically appealing in various facets of acoustics. I'm seeing things I could hang/secure on a wall to be either, as reflectional/tone treatment, coupler/decoupler, diffusers, bass traps, low/mid/hi frequency absorbtion, high frequency diffusers, or combinations there of.

Secondly, I'm seeing, if using these select objects, I could quickly and drastically change the acoustic character of my live room, and rather quickly.

Anybody else seen this stuff? Anybody using this stuff for acoustic treatment?
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soapfoot

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Dec 25 15 8:23 PM

you'd have to be more specific.

my hunch is that, short of draping heavy fabric at some distance from a wall (which can be a quite effective acoustic treatment), I wouldn't expect there to be much at hobby lobby that would be more cost-effective or efficacious than rigid fiberglas by Owens Corning (703) or similar generics.

brad allen williams

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adam brown

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Dec 25 15 11:05 PM

There are all kinds of things of many shapes and sizes, and materials.
Metal, wood, and fiber. Here are examples:

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Storage/Boxes/Dark-Galvanized-12-Drawer-Metal-Cabinet/p/101377-KO0990

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Storage/Boxes/Dark-Wood-Box-with-Drawers-Shelves/p/101379-TU0164

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Accessories/Accent-Pieces/Wood-Lantern-with-Rope/p/JT9985-80643279

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Storage/Baskets/Straw-Basket-with-5-Compartments/p/118171-KU0315

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Accessories/Accent-Pieces/Large-Shiny-Black-Coral-on-Clear-Base/p/80640927-GO0479

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Storage/c/3-112?q=%3Arelevance&page=6

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Home-Decor-Frames/Decorative-Accessories/Accent-Pieces/10-1/2"-Gold-Metal-Burst-Ball/p/137533

That last link, I tried to find more like I saw in the store. That one would hang from the ceiling but there were othere such designs metal ones and resin, or wood, could be wall mounted. Anyway, lots of things like that, for diffusers, or combs ect. Lots of things could be used to generate controlled reverberation right from the desk top, by hand.

Lots of other stuff, of different shape and size that could be reversable for a different purpose on each side. Also big wooden picture frames, ceramic, metal, woven fiber pots, and vases and baskets of various sizes. Tin boxes plates platers shelves. Better to see it yourself. Brass, copper, bronze vasses, platters, ect ect. Too much to list as they say. Some of the things you could stuff with different materials, cork, or burlap, or insulation to get different sounds.

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soapfoot

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Dec 25 15 11:41 PM

I recommend purchasing F. Alton Everest's book Master Handbook of Acoustics. That would probably be money better spent than anything in Hobby Lobby as far as treating your room goes.

One thing that seems to be unclear here is what constitutes a "diffuser."

Most diffusers are not random in nature-- they're mathematically tuned devices that are constructed based upon the principles of specific formulae, e.g. the quadratic residue. Even though they look random, they are not random, and a series of random surfaces won't be even a tiny bit as efficacious as an actual purpose-built diffuser.

brad allen williams

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waltzingbear

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Dec 26 15 3:53 AM

If you want an unknown random feature get a bookcase and random free books from the local b0ookstore, I get mine from Powell's.

anything else is a bad idea, and Everest's book is a prudent investment.

Alan

Alan Garren
Waltzing Bear Audio

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John Eppstein

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Dec 26 15 4:00 AM

Most of those things are not made of materials that would be effective for the purpose, or are not configured in a useful manner. (The coral is a material that could provide random reflections but the dimensions of what they sell are far too small. It would take a honkin' BIG piece of coral to make an adequate diffuser which would be both expensive and a poor use of space (not to mention the ecological issues of destroying coral reef) - you could  construct a "skyline style" diffuser that would be much more effective, cost a lot less money, and not get in the way nearly as much fairly easily with common hand tools. The metal strorage devices would likely have resonance problems that would need dealing with and are not really configured adequately anyway. Straw is a pretty useless material for acoustic purposes, although a cow or donjkey might enjoy it if it isn't covered with some sort of finish. Whole bales of straw might find an acoustic use but they're very bulky, tends to shed a lot, and irritate people's allerges, not to mention being a fire hazard. (And they would look like the set on an old rerun oif Hee Haw/..,)

I strongly second the suggestion of the F. Alton Everest book - everybody in audio should have a copy.

I'd also suggest purchasing a copy of "Recording Studio Design" by Phillip Newell.

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John Eppstein

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Dec 26 15 6:27 AM

soapfoot wrote:

One thing that seems to be unclear here is what constitutes a "diffuser."

Most diffusers are not random in nature-- they're mathematically tuned devices that are constructed based upon the principles of specific formulae, e.g. the quadratic residue. Even though they look random, they are not random, and a series of random surfaces won't be even a tiny bit as efficacious as an actual purpose-built diffuser.
 

This is actually a somewhat tricky concept for inexperienced peoiple to grasp, in that it in boith true and not true, depending on how you take the word "random".

Many diffusers are, in fact, "random" in nature if you take the mathematical definition of "random", meaning that essentially all frequencies (within the relevant (auidio) passband) are reflected equally in all directions. Then the distribution can truly be said to be mathematically random. This is true of diffusers designbed to function in three dimensions- in oither words they diffuse (in a similar fashion) both horizontally and vertically. Most "skyline" diffusers are of this type, as well as many that have the appearance of a bunch of little boxes of varying depths enclosed in a frame. However some diffusers, such as those of the polycylindrical type, only diffuse in oine plane (usually horizontally) unless several of the polycylindrical reflectors are  uased togetrher in an array with some oreiented horizontally and some vertically.

The typical layman, however, generally interprets the word "random" as meaning "any old way", which nearly always does not work acoustically. To achieve a matrhematically random difdfusion the dimensions and relationships of the individual elements must be computed carefully to insure a truly mathematically random acoustic spred.

It is possible for a (very) gifted individual to "eyeball" a random array (like a "skyline" diffuser and get it right (anything's "possible"), but that requires savant-like powers of observation and an intuitive grasp of the geometric relationships and calculations involved - which requires both an exceptional mind and a deep experience in dealing with such problems. The odds of someone with modest experience pulling it off correctly are rather lower than winning first prize in the state lottery. Indeed, few if any experienced studio designers would would be willing tro stake their reputation on such a "seat ofd the pants" approach.

The good news is that there are a number of professionally worked out designs for various diffuser types available on the internet and following the instructions to construct them requires only average carpentry skills. The required materials for a "skyline type" (so named for its resemblance to a city skyline) are quite simple - a sheet of 3/4" marine deck plywood for the base pl;ate (depending on dimentions a partial sheet may be all that's required) and some lengtrhs of 2x2 lumber cut into assorted short lengths according tro the given design. The 2x2 lengths are then mounted to the base plate withg a screw and some quality carpenter's glue, such as Titebond in the pattern specified in the plans (or calculated from scratch if you're really so inclined and have the skills.)

If you're at all handy with basic carpentry you should be able to build a correctly designed diffuser for a fair bit less than Hobby Lobby would gouge you for a bunch of junk that wouldn't work.

Just google "diy acoustic diffuser".

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adam brown

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Dec 26 15 9:28 AM

The only tools in my hands I was ever good with were drum sticks, sadly. Gave that one up in '98.

If you're locked in on the cookie cutter thing, sorry, but you are not going to understand what I explain, most likely ever. You are also likely right. Hey look at Steve Via's place. It's way bigger than mine by far, but he has put together a space in a different way that works. Fabric mounted on panels. A loft on the side with book cases, and books. Wish I had a loft. I do have a staircase, and a hall, which some ruddy idiot put carpet on.

You think just 1 item in a room guys. Those like i said are examples. There are some 2-3-4ft square. A 4"×6"×10" anything all by itself? You must think im retarded. My room is about 13ft×15ft ish, with standard 8.5ft ceiling probably, sounds nice in there as is to my ear, but in the right spot i can hear a slight distortion to sound waves. Just guessing on dimensions. I haven't been able to measure yet. I don't have the keys till January. How about a dozen, or 2 dozen, or 3 dozen select items on the wall?
Of course these are hollow. They are vessels, no matter what each is made of, most, which can hold other select materials, like 703, or whatever.

Of course I can get books to read.

In any case, I'm not so much into conformity in its entirety. I want to be versatile, very versatile, and able to be rapidly responsive to needed change. Perhaps I should get a few big rugs, a couple 7ft book shelves and call it a day.
That would be way easier probably.

There is a line in Canary Row, the movie, not the book, yeah I don't ready books much.

The bum says "Why don't you just give up?"

I laugh every time.

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soapfoot

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Dec 26 15 9:31 AM

Adam, here's an article I wrote featuring a quick "recipe" you can follow to build your own BBC-style diffusers inexpensively. It is a bit labor-intensive, however.

http://tapeop.com/tutorials/83/diy-diffusors/

You can purchase similar products commercially, but they tend to be a little bit pricey. I recommend finding the original BBC white paper on the construction of these if you want a bit of insight into just how involved good diffuser design is.

Alan above mentioned bookcases full of used books; this does work somewhat, but to my understanding a bookcase will function not as much as a "diffuser" as an absorber/bass trap. The book covers reflect some high frequencies back into the room, and the loosely packed paper in the books themselves can tend to absorb low frequencies. The result of the reflections isn't quite as "random" as many folks think, but sometimes the books can be a useful bass trap.

It should be noted that the size/depth of the "wells" in a diffuser will determine how low the diffusion extends. Even a purpose-built diffuser with well depths of 4" is only effective down to about 1.5k.

brad allen williams

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soapfoot

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Dec 26 15 9:46 AM

Adam,

In your position, I'd start with a few rugs, some 703 panels covered in whatever fabric or kraft paper you think looks cool, mounted at your speakers' first reflection points and in some areas of your tracking room. As much bass trapping as you can afford (seriously, it's almost impossible to go overboard here), perhaps a tapestry or velvet curtain or two spaced out from a wall a few inches, etc. That will get you going without huge cash outlays.

Almost anything else will be purely decorative. Decorate all you want, just don't confuse decoration with treatment.

Totally cool if you're not the book-reading type. In that case, you can simply hire someone to read the book for you (or more precisely, hire a trained acoustician). There are no real shortcuts here. Much like 99% of a good paint job is in the prep, 99% of a good sounding acoustic space is in the knowledge/understanding of acoustics. Can't fake that, and guessing doesn't work very well.

I've known two people within the past five years that built studios with an almost stubbornly non-conformist DIY ethic. In both cases, I'm sad to report that while they worked very hard and were very excited about their ideas, there ended up being a TON of sunk cost, with rooms that simply don't sound very good, and having spent enough to have done it right. This is almost certainly what will happen if you take the same approach, unless you are very, very lucky.

I wish you the best regardless!

brad allen williams

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morespaceecho

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Dec 26 15 2:15 PM

soapfoot wrote:

I've known two people within the past five years that built studios with an almost stubbornly non-conformist DIY ethic. 

why would people do this? i mean DIY is fine, but the tried and true methods of room treatment are, well, tried and true. and these days you have all the info for how to do it right at your fingertips.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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adam brown

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Dec 26 15 5:24 PM

Just an idea

I'm looking at 703 panels online. 1", to 4". Thats the thickness im guessing. Are they supposed to be stand alone mounted in a free standing frame, or would I screw them to my walls, and ceiling directly, or both?

I would like the live room to be as sound proofed as possible to the outside of its space, but not dead inside. I dont want to use spot mics if possible. I want the space to have a sound that will congeal with any acoustic instrument, wind, string, or drum played in it as well as smaller watt guitar amps. Oh and human voice. I don't know that I would track an ensemble of any size simultaneously, at least not in the same room. Well can't say never. But I have all of the upstairs I can use but just the 2 rooms and hall dedicated to recording.

Well gotta get ready for Rodney Carrington tonight. Thanks all. Will get back to this later.

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morespaceecho

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Dec 26 15 6:07 PM

thicker is better....the thicker they are, the more lows they'll absorb. 

if you space them away from the walls, again they'll work better at low freqs. a simple ghetto way to do this: screw small pieces of 2x4 to the wall, screw little L-brackets to them. make a horizontal slice in the back of your 703 panel, slot that onto the L-brackets. 

if you leave them unframed, you get extra absorption from the sides. framing makes them look more pro but is more work and money, so i say leave them unframed. it's easy to have sharp edges with 703 (impossible with rockwool), and they look fine unframed IMO.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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soapfoot

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Dec 26 15 7:00 PM

also, none of this will do a great deal toward soundproofing from the outside. In order to do that well, you'll need to build a structure within the structure, and possibly float a floor.

In reality, if you build some good (tall) moveable gobos (one soft side, one hard side), then for many things you'll probably be able to get by just fine without soundproofing, but if you have close neighbors or a lot of traffic in your area, you might not want to record whispered vocals during the day with an omni, or 100w Marshalls in the middle of the night.

brad allen williams

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John Eppstein

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Dec 26 15 7:01 PM

adam brown wrote:
The only tools in my hands I was ever good with were drum sticks, sadly. Gave that one up in '98.

If you're locked in on the cookie cutter thing, sorry, but you are not going to understand what I explain, most likely ever.
 

No, not "locked on the cookie cutter thing" at all. And I'm pretty sure I understand you. I also believe I understand what you DON'T understand, which is a knowledge of materials and their properties. If you're really not intro doing a little rudimentary cutting and glueing of wood, perhaps you can enlist the help of a friend who's "handy". These projects realy aren't difficult.
Hey look at Steve Via's place. It's way bigger than mine by far, but he has put together a space in a different way that works. Fabric mounted on panels. A loft on the side with book cases, and books. Wish I had a loft. I do have a staircase, and a hall, which some ruddy idiot put carpet on.

Materials are key, as is design. In Vai's place the fabric on the panels isn't particulary important, it really doesn't DO anything. It's what's hiding BEHIND the fabric (most likely 4 or more inches of rock wool and/or possibly some wooden diffuser arrays or maybe Helmholtz resonators) that's important. And yes,.I've seen articles about his place.

You can be pretty sure he had some professional input into the acoustical side of that homey setting, or has done a fair bit of study himself. Probably both.


You think just 1 item in a room guys.


No, I'm not. I'm actually thinking a whole lot of items in a room, none of which really do any good because the materials are ineffective for the purpose and the  dimensions are wrong.

The thing is, a couple or three properly built diffusers about 4 feet square or so in the right places (they look like abstract wood sculptures) and a hald a dozen  frames like Vai's that are filled with the proper thickness (generally at least 4"., sometimes more) of rock wool or high density acoustical fibereglass (for absorption) will do more for you than a whole warehouse full of Hobby7 Lobby bric-a-brack.

Somebody else suggested a couple of bookshelves - this is a good idea, as you can actually get some pretty decent diffusion using bookshelves, provided you don't stack the books in them evenly by size and randomize the arrangement properly. It helps to had read a bit about designing diffusion panels to get a basic understanding. The idea is to get a whole lot of little reflections in different directions functioning at different frequencies which, on a bookshelf, means big books mixed in with little books of different sizes, some stacked on their sides, some in a normal vertical position.. It's not as good as a couple real dioffusers and takes more space, but it can work and you can read the books, too!

Large, overstuffed furniture can sometimes provide useful absorption but it's REALLY NOT space efficient, especially in a smaller room.
Those like i said are examples. There are some 2-3-4ft square. A 4"×6"×10" anything all by itself? You must think im retarded.

Not at all.
However I do think that your knowledge of acoustics is somewhat limited.
My room is about 13ft×15ft ish, with standard 8.5ft ceiling probably, sounds nice in there as is to my ear, but in the right spot i can hear a slight distortion to sound waves. Just guessing on dimensions. I haven't been able to measure yet. I don't have the keys till January. How about a dozen, or 2 dozen, or 3 dozen select items on the wall?
Of course these are hollow. They are vessels, no matter what each is made of, most, which can hold other select materials, like 703, or whatever.
 

 If the items on the wall are selected because they're designed to affect the acoustics in the room in the ways that are needed , sure. The odds of stuff from Hobby Lobby or a similar place doing that are roughly the same as you winning the grand prize in the state lottery, especially if you haven't studied up on the acoustic properties of different materials and how the geometry of the objects constructed of those materials affects sound. Most of the stuff from a place like HL is made of materials that are fairly transparent to sound at many frequencies. Many of the things they have also exhibit resonances which will affect sound. Resonance can be a very useful tool in sound control is understood and applied correctly for the space that is being tuned. Stuff from HL (or Sears, or whatever) is not designed with acoustic properties in mind. You need stuff that is.

Of course I can get books to read.
 

I strongly advise doing so. You should read them to get a general handle on the principles and problems involved. It's much less important to get into the details of the math involved unless you want to get into it professionally. However getting an understanding of the basics is key. It's like a big 3D game of pool - you have to know the angles, what happens when the little balls (or air) hit different types of surfaces, etc. A very rough analogy, hopefully it conveys the idea. When you hit the mathematical parts skim over them but read the parts that explain what's being done.

Get the RIGHT books. There are some books out there that aren't good - some mix a certain amount of good info with a fair percentage of hogwash and often a novice can get incorrect ideas because they lack trhe experience to tell the difference. I'd especially avoid books written by people who make their living selling acoustical products to non-professionals and books with the word "Expert" in the title. However Auralex gives away a small manual that explains some of the basics and they're honest enough so that anybody can recognize trhe slant and unabashewd pitches for theire products. It's no substitute for the real texts on the subject though.

In any case, I'm not so much into conformity in its entirety. I want to be versatile, very versatile, and able to be rapidly responsive to needed change. Perhaps I should get a few big rugs, a couple 7ft book shelves and call it a day.
That would be way easier probably.

Sure, versatility is good and you don;'t need to be a "conformist" as long as you're aware of the basic principles governing what you're doing.

Book shelves are definitely a better idea than Hobby Lobby kitsch. Knowing how to place the books for good acoustic results is important to how well they'll do for you.

I've been doing "guerilla acoustics" for a long time. It can be done with reasonable results - I've designed horn loaded PA subs by eye which is something people say can't be done but mine worked great. But the thing is you have to know about what you're doing pretty well to be able to "wing it" like that, and it's always better to do it the right way if you can, given the circumstances.

My current "little home studio"* has no formal acoustic treatment at all and sounds quite good, but I specifically selected the place I moved into for acoustical properties and got lucky on availability.


* - I'm only being slightly facetious - it's about 3 rooms in a flat over a bakery. One bedroom (which bears an odd resemblance to the shape of many control rooms due to a large bay window, only smaller is the control room with the console and 24 track, a smaller room adjoining it functions as a vocal booth and sometime electronics shop, plus storage, and the former living room is the live room. The only thing in the place that might be considered "real" treatment is a large office panel made of acoustical fiberglass that sits behind the drummer, mostly covering a widow. However the place has great natural acoustics - 12 foot ceilings and fancy Victorian trim in the ceiling corners that rounds out what would noremally be a hard corner and has ridged mouldings that provide a small measure of diffusion.

I don't think I'd want to track drums in a room with a lower ceiling without some sort of overhead treatment.

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John Eppstein

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Dec 26 15 7:25 PM

BTW, a GREAT source for getting 703 acoustical panels at a pretty cheap price can be industrial surplus dealers who sell used office panels at a very steep discount. Some officfe panels are useless, just decorative cloth over hardboard, but the good ones designed for sound control use 703. You can tell therm because they's the ones that a bit soft (but still firm) when you press into them. New, from an office saupply retail store they're insanely expensive but if you're in an area where there are used office supply brokers you can often get them really cheap. Usually just 2" but you can double them up.

After the '89 quake a lot of the office building gutted the offices and for a few weeks there were dumpsters full of 703 panels all over The Financial District. I did a fair amount of treatment to a small theater (which had no budget, no, that's a lie, they had NEGATIVE budget) that I was working sound at. We also treated a couple of friends' home studios.

BTW, in case you haven't guessed, I'm actually something of a diffusion freak. I'm not one of these guys who goes in for a "more is better" approach to absorption.  It ceretainly has its place and is often  absolutely necessary for certain problems, but I like my rooms to be a bit live. The trick with that is that the room has to sound good naturally, which is often a matter of geometry.

The other type of treatment that's often overlooked is the use of Helmholtz resonators to selectivel damp specific problem frequencies without affecting the wideband response much. One of the cool things about them is that it's possible to build a relatively small device tuned to tame a low frequency room mode, whereas conventional asbsorptive bass traps gernerally require a lot more room. You don't see much about resonators because they have to be custom designed for the particular application, so they don't make a good product for companies involved in mass market retail sales.

Controlling sound emissions to the outside is a different problem and the stuff we've been talking about won't help. The primary problem with this is low frequencies (where all the mechanical energy is) and the only way to block transmission of lows is mass, often combined with significant air gaps and decfoupling devices (such as Sorbothane pads) employed to eliminate mechanical coupling It's expensive, it's difficult, and it requires a lot of space. Unless, of course, your structure is constructed out of concrete, cinderblock (hopefully sand filled) or soilid stone and has no openings such as windoiws or doors. Doors need to be heavy and should be double - inner and outer - with the frame decoupled so it doesn't transmit. Windows need to be double paned with thick glass. I worked construction of two (smaller) professional studio builds that employed these techniques. It's a pain., When you put up your multiple layers of sheetrock you can't miss with the hammer and crack a panel or you have to rip it out ands replace it. Panels must be staggered soi that the seams on the different layers don't match. Properly, the panels should be hung using channels that decouple them from the studs. You need seperate framing for the inner and outer walls.

Get the Newell book - he goes into it pretty extensively.

NONE of the books on home studios do AFAIK.

Last Edited By: John Eppstein Dec 26 15 7:43 PM. Edited 2 times.

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John Eppstein

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Dec 27 15 5:28 PM

soapfoot wrote:
Adam, here's an article I wrote featuring a quick "recipe" you can follow to build your own BBC-style diffusers inexpensively. It is a bit labor-intensive, however.

http://tapeop.com/tutorials/83/diy-diffusors/




 

This is an excellent article on building what I've been refderring to as a "skyline diffusor" (because it looks like a city skyline) The proper BBC name is kinda clumsy and (for me, anyway) hard to remember.

Spending $100 to make 4 of these will do you much more good than $500 spent at Hobby Lobby and will be just as attractive.

Incidentally, if you don't have access to a chop saw or similar power saw (they can be rented on a daily basic from toolk rental shops ion most areas) it IS possible to get good, square cuts by hand using a simple miter box and saw - it's just a lot more work! (Good excercise, though....)

One thing I don't think was mentioned is that if you pre-paint the blocks you should leave the end to be glued to the backing plate unpainted for better adhesion. Use Titebond glue. (Do NOT use "Gorilla Glue", it expands and will push the bits out of alignment.)

Last Edited By: John Eppstein Dec 27 15 5:36 PM. Edited 2 times.

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,318 Member Since:04/02/2011

#18 [url]

Dec 28 15 9:45 PM

adam brown wrote:
Would it be unheard of to hang 4" 703 panels from the ceiling?

Not at all. People refer to this as a "cloud." Wrap it in fabric first so HVAC doesn't disturb fiberglas fibers and blow them around. This goes for anywhere you hang 703.

brad allen williams

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adam brown

Gold Finger

Posts: 300 Member Since:23/02/2011

#19 [url]

Dec 29 15 3:26 PM

soapfoot wrote:
adam brown wrote:
Would it be unheard of to hang 4" 703 panels from the ceiling?



Not at all. People refer to this as a "cloud." Wrap it in fabric first so HVAC doesn't disturb fiberglas fibers and blow them around. This goes for anywhere you hang 703.



To clarify, I mean 703 panels hanging vertical, length wise, parallel to walls, or perhaps diagonal to some degree?

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

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Dec 29 15 4:20 PM

adam brown wrote:
soapfoot wrote:
adam brown wrote:
Would it be unheard of to hang 4" 703 panels from the ceiling?



Not at all. People refer to this as a "cloud." Wrap it in fabric first so HVAC doesn't disturb fiberglas fibers and blow them around. This goes for anywhere you hang 703.
 
 


To clarify, I mean 703 panels hanging vertical, length wise, parallel to walls, or perhaps diagonal to some degree?

You seem to be talking about an air gap between the panel and the wall. This is also valid and, up to a point, willl aid in the panels' ability to trap low frequencies. At a small distance it would enhance the efficacy (at the tradeoff of space considerations), but at some distance it would cease to be 'treatment' and become more like a 'gobo.'

brad allen williams

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