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Mickeyrouse

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Posts: 137 Member Since: 05/11/2015

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Jul 10 16 11:07 PM

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I have been playing with Session Horns. As noted in other discussions, in some places it almost gets to "passable." 
It seems that its range of acceptability is about an octave and a half at c3 and slightly above. However, that is where the tenor sax wants to play. The parts I want trumpet on are generally above that. I don't need Maynard Ferguson, but higher than what it seems Session Horns is comfortable at. Above that range, the sound is similar to a cross between an alto sax and picolo trumpet....or a Farfisa.
   Recognizing that you can only get so much out of it, does anyone have any mix/process suggestions- EQ, distortion, compression, Autotune, whatever to move this sound just a little closer to "real?" 
 Strange as it is, the tenor sax sound in Expand actually seems more sax-like. The bari really sounds.nice. The tenor sounds are also okay as long as you stay out of the alto range, which begins to sound wheezy.
​and compared to Model Sampling?.......
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gtoledo3

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Posts: 4,169 Member Since:23/10/2013

#3 [url]

Jul 11 16 12:24 AM

You can try messing around with the formant, possibly octave, with a vocal transformer. That's sort of what a virtual horn synth would be doing itself as it changes registers, but you would have another take on it.

You could try introducing some modulation, like a planned out filter sweep for longer notes, or autowah type envelope filtering for attacks or variation. I don't know how authentic or natural any of that would necessarily sound!

What brings the filtering to mind is synth part on "I Can See Clearly Now", which is pretty overt in tone.

The idea that filter sweep high to low, or low to high, might be able to be employed subtly and not be too obvious for what it is, is just hypothetical on my part.

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.

Posts: 1,503 Member Since:28/11/2011

#5 [url]

Jul 11 16 8:32 AM

I finished a song recently using the Samplemodeling trumpets and trombones. It is by far the most realistic I've heard to date. Though it took a while to learn how to "play", and then more MIDI tweaking after the fact, I think it came out pretty OK for a the first time out.

That said, there IS still something missing, and it has less to do with the sounds and articulation, and more to do with there not being a real horn in a real room with a real mic. Sound traveling through air and all that. Even though that's how the samples were made, it was difficult sitting them in the mix as opposed to having recorded them. Make sense?

 "Real People, Real Performances."

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seth

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Posts: 5,626 Member Since:26/01/2011

#6 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:10 AM

I read somewhere the Bruce Swedien likes to run synths through the studio speakers and put a mic in the room to get air in the sound. I've never done it, but it might help with horn sounds.

I've also found that the most important thing about making virtual instruments work is making sure the parts they're playing are parts real players could and would play.

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.

Posts: 1,503 Member Since:28/11/2011

#7 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:17 AM

seth wrote:
I read somewhere the Bruce Swedien likes to run synths through the studio speakers and put a mic in the room to get air in the sound. I've never done it, but it might help with horn sounds.

I've also found that the most important thing about making virtual instruments work is making sure the parts they're playing are parts real players could and would play.

Yes, I would do that often back in the day, and if I had the opportinity to do that for these tracks I would have for sure. 

And to add to your thoughts, I think it's important with these horn VIs to know their limitations and work within them, rather than try to force out of them what they are not capable of.

 "Real People, Real Performances."

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ktownson

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Posts: 3,177 Member Since:22/01/2011

#8 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:30 AM

I wonder if the VI's are just too perfect at the attack. I remember playing in a horn section and there was always a split second of subtle dissonance before everyone tuned up to each other. Not gross adjustments, just a little lip to take the beats out. Much like a guitar attack.

"Kerry fixed the stereo, and now it doesn't work." (My six-year-old sister)

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.

Posts: 1,503 Member Since:28/11/2011

#9 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:37 AM

Believe it or not, there are performance "filters" for that, and a number of other things horn related in the Samplemodeling VI. Pretty remarkable really. I don't have the right keyboard, or wind controller to really "play" it like it could be, so programming was a bit of a chore. It was fun though, and the more I dig in the better results I'll get for sure. It probably helps if you are keyed in to all the subtleties of a real horn performance. Still won't beat the real thing IMO, but pretty damn close.

 "Real People, Real Performances."

Last Edited By: Jul 11 16 10:10 AM. Edited 1 time.

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soapfoot

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Posts: 7,391 Member Since:04/02/2011

#10 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:50 AM

seth wrote:
I've also found that the most important thing about making virtual instruments work is making sure the parts they're playing are parts real players could and would play.

Yes. This is often the biggest part of the equation. 

The main reason synths typically have such a hard time evoking a guitar sound, for instance, is that a keyboard is not a guitar. Yet I've heard Bernard Wright make a minimoog sound like Jimi Hendrix by playing actual guitar language while doing a few FM/intermodulation tricks using osc 3.

 

brad allen williams

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chance

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Posts: 2,682 Member Since:30/01/2011

#11 [url]

Jul 14 16 4:00 PM

I have gotten very good results with IK Multimedia "Miraslov Orchestra" however I was only an observer. After hearing them I made the purchase, but have not put it through a lot of paces yet. There is a demo video of it in action. Check it out

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chance

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Posts: 2,682 Member Since:30/01/2011

#14 [url]

Sep 3 16 11:05 PM

chance wrote:
I have gotten very good results with IK Multimedia "Miraslov Orchestra" however I was only an observer. After hearing them I made the purchase, but have not put it through a lot of paces yet. There is a demo video of it in action. Check it out

I've had it for a long time (IK's Mirasloav Philharmonic) and finally got into it and used it. Like Terry said not too good for pop, but after recording the parts, I reamped it back into the TR with a ribbon mic 10 ' away facing the live end of the TR, and it sounds very convincing.

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Mickeyrouse

Silverado

Posts: 137 Member Since:05/11/2015

#15 [url]

Feb 7 17 3:27 PM

VI UPDATE

Virtual instruments: updateThe oft-recurring recommendation of Sample Modeling instruments is good advice. I have now used, in addition to Session Horns, Hollywood Brass (and Strings) and Sample Modeling's "The Trumpet" and "The Saxes."    "The Saxes" are a little more straight-forward to use, because articulation options are fewer. By playing with Expression (CC11) and the Mod Wheel, control lanes in Pro Tools, (and no doubt other DAW's, if not all) texture and other individualistic effects are within reach.In The Trumpet, the afore-mentioned controls modify sound and texture as well, but there are about 30 articulations availble plus five mute options. The articulations at first look can be overwhelming,  and the urge to want a "real" trumpeter may return. But if you have some guys sitting in front of you in the studio, you will still find yourself saying things like "...on this note here I want you to go like this.." And then you give your best imitation of how you want it. Or you use the Italian term that describes the sound, hoping you pronounce it right, or that he is not self-taught and understands terms like "portamento" and "fruilli". In which case you still need to know articulations.   None of this means beans if the VI's don't sound real. Sample Modeling is the closest- indistinguishable in sections in their comfort range- I 've heard yet. In fact, I've had some horn players ask me, "sounds pretty good. Who'd you have playing?"  I'm kinda disappointed in Hollywood Brass, though if my Gold was Diamond I might appreciate what the multiple mic positions can do. Hollywood Strings Gold is worth every penny.

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seth

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,626 Member Since:26/01/2011

#16 [url]

Feb 7 17 4:07 PM

A friend who does a lot of scoring recommended Broadway Big Band. He said it's unwieldy but the samples are the best he's heard. They make a horns- only version called Broadway Lites. I emailed them recently to ask a question and never heard back. Not the way to sell me software.

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