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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,139 Member Since:23/01/2011

#41 [url]

Apr 25 17 9:16 PM

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,249 Member Since:27/01/2011

#42 [url]

Apr 25 17 10:20 PM

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  


The rason why i want to hear or doesn't want to hear the singer go nothing to do with the mix level on my
headphone.It's more about the quality of the singer....:)  :)

With a quality singer i will gladly take that level in my headphone mix Michael......

JN

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,139 Member Since:23/01/2011

#43 [url]

Apr 25 17 10:47 PM

bigbone wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  


The rason why i want to hear or doesn't want to hear the singer go nothing to do with the mix level on my
headphone.It's more about the quality of the singer....:)  :)

With a quality singer i will gladly take that level in my headphone mix Michael......

JN

 
So many people ask me almost instantly to turn the vocal down that I have 'been trained'.  With the type of projects I seem to do a lot of, in the last 5 years or so I have also given up on the idea of hearing a good balance in the control room as well--most everybody seems to be very focussed on making sure there are no mistakes from the players rather than making compelling music--at least when I'm recording non-improvised overdubs.  

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jesse decarlo

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,533 Member Since:24/03/2013

#44 [url]

Apr 25 17 10:58 PM

Really interesting thoughts from everybody on this subject.

As a musician, when I'm overdubbing a guitar or bass part I usually prefer to hear the drums a little louder than they would likely be in the final mix, and my own part softer. If I'm too loud in the cue mix it makes me play too timidly, in general.

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,390 Member Since:04/02/2011

#45 [url]

Apr 26 17 6:37 AM

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  


The rason why i want to hear or doesn't want to hear the singer go nothing to do with the mix level on my
headphone.It's more about the quality of the singer....:)  :)

With a quality singer i will gladly take that level in my headphone mix Michael......

JN

 
So many people ask me almost instantly to turn the vocal down that I have 'been trained'.  With the type of projects I seem to do a lot of, in the last 5 years or so I have also given up on the idea of hearing a good balance in the control room as well--most everybody seems to be very focussed on making sure there are no mistakes from the players rather than making compelling music--at least when I'm recording non-improvised overdubs.  

Man, it's so interesting how differently we all operate-- I cannot even fathom that people would ask you to turn the vocal DOWN.

I want to understand every word, and really lock onto the emotional feeling, so that I can be sure every note I play supports the feeling of the lyric and delivery.

I want it to sound like the final mix, and I want my part to be about the level it will be in the final mix. Otherwise I'm just guessing at dynamics; at tone; at everything. If I'm in the control room listening over monitors with my amp in the other room, so much the better.

brad allen williams

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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,949 Member Since:20/01/2011

#46 [url]

Apr 26 17 12:04 PM

e.g., Cyndi routinely likes to sing behind the beat.
when she is experimenting, she might be trying to pull SO far behind that it can seem out of time, until you 'get it' in context...

but that means that trying to PLAY to that vocal is a real balancing act; because what she actually wants is to be BEHIND you, not for you to follow her backward in time.

What I really need to play to, in terms of time, is the drums, not the vocal.
So I need enough of her to follow her overall direction, and emotion and to some degree dynamics, but NOT so much that her pocket starts to lead me down the rabbit hole.

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,249 Member Since:27/01/2011

#47 [url]

Apr 26 17 12:11 PM

weedywet wrote:


What I really need to play to, in terms of time, is the drums, not the vocal.
So I need enough of her to follow her overall direction, and emotion and to some degree dynamics, but NOT so much that her pocket starts to lead me down the rabbit hole.


Exactly how i fell when i track ( replace the word drums by bass )

JN

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,139 Member Since:23/01/2011

#49 [url]

Apr 27 17 9:07 AM

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  


The rason why i want to hear or doesn't want to hear the singer go nothing to do with the mix level on my
headphone.It's more about the quality of the singer....:)  :)

With a quality singer i will gladly take that level in my headphone mix Michael......

JN

 
So many people ask me almost instantly to turn the vocal down that I have 'been trained'.  With the type of projects I seem to do a lot of, in the last 5 years or so I have also given up on the idea of hearing a good balance in the control room as well--most everybody seems to be very focussed on making sure there are no mistakes from the players rather than making compelling music--at least when I'm recording non-improvised overdubs.  

Man, it's so interesting how differently we all operate-- I cannot even fathom that people would ask you to turn the vocal DOWN.

I want to understand every word, and really lock onto the emotional feeling, so that I can be sure every note I play supports the feeling of the lyric and delivery.

I want it to sound like the final mix, and I want my part to be about the level it will be in the final mix. Otherwise I'm just guessing at dynamics; at tone; at everything. If I'm in the control room listening over monitors with my amp in the other room, so much the better.

Brad, I totally get--and subscribe to--your point-of-view.  It seems like there has been a trend in that last 5-7 years to engage in what I call "defect oriented listening".  The worst case of this I ever experienced was when a client came over to hear a mix.  I hit the spacebar (aka 'play') and in under 2 seconds the guy said "STOP".  He was/is a pretty high-strung guy and it was almost laughable to me.  FWIW, it seems like this defect-oriented listening trend is lessening somewhat in the last year or two and I, for one, will be glad to see it fade... at least to a lesser degree that it has been.  

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,390 Member Since:04/02/2011

#50 [url]

Apr 27 17 9:12 AM

maarvold wrote:

soapfoot wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:

maarvold wrote:

bigbone wrote:
Sometime i need the hear the vocal, sometime i don't want to hear the vocal, !!!!


JN

 
My default level for the vocal is usually down around 7-10 dB: so players can hear it's place in the archutecture of the arangement, but not so they can hang on every nuance.  Most players seem ok with this.  


The rason why i want to hear or doesn't want to hear the singer go nothing to do with the mix level on my
headphone.It's more about the quality of the singer....:)  :)

With a quality singer i will gladly take that level in my headphone mix Michael......

JN

 
So many people ask me almost instantly to turn the vocal down that I have 'been trained'.  With the type of projects I seem to do a lot of, in the last 5 years or so I have also given up on the idea of hearing a good balance in the control room as well--most everybody seems to be very focussed on making sure there are no mistakes from the players rather than making compelling music--at least when I'm recording non-improvised overdubs.  

Man, it's so interesting how differently we all operate-- I cannot even fathom that people would ask you to turn the vocal DOWN.

I want to understand every word, and really lock onto the emotional feeling, so that I can be sure every note I play supports the feeling of the lyric and delivery.

I want it to sound like the final mix, and I want my part to be about the level it will be in the final mix. Otherwise I'm just guessing at dynamics; at tone; at everything. If I'm in the control room listening over monitors with my amp in the other room, so much the better.

Brad, I totally get--and subscribe to--your point-of-view.  It seems like there has been a trend in that last 5-7 years to engage in what I call "defect oriented listening".  The worst case of this I ever experienced was when a client came over to hear a mix.  I hit the spacebar (aka 'play') and in under 2 seconds the guy said "STOP".  He was/is a pretty high-strung guy and it was almost laughable to me.  FWIW, it seems like this defect-oriented listening trend is lessening somewhat in the last year or two and I, for one, will be glad to see it fade... at least to a lesser degree that it has been.  

Great point. I'm sometimes given over to it myself, PARTICULARLY when I'm alone and recording myself. I'm susceptible to totally losing the plot and trying to capture a "perfect" performance.

For some reason, if there's a good set of ears I trust in the room, and I can just focus on PLAYING, my tendency to hyper-focus on flaws sort of goes away.

I think it can be easy, particularly for a younger player, to conflate "professionalism" and "perfectionism." The more I gain experience the better I become at being able to "trust" and just play and then evaluate later. 

brad allen williams

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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,949 Member Since:20/01/2011

#51 [url]

Apr 27 17 10:53 AM

indeed

I've been saying for a long time now (into the void) that a great record is not "an absence of mistakes".

it's only when the record is NOT doing its job that it's time to start looking for reasons WHY it's not.

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,169 Member Since:23/10/2013

#52 [url]

Apr 27 17 11:32 AM

I always try to give the drummer vocals so that they don't play stuff that fights the vocals. I will in fact tend to push back if I get that request from anyone, unless it's because they're trying to nail something tricky and have some sort of block.

Usually winds up with less "why are you playing THAT?", and instead, everything setting up the element that leads the song - the melody.

Depends on the type of player though, some people aren't really busy anyway...or they already know the song inside and out, and exactly what the singer does.

Whatever works. 

Last Edited By: gtoledo3 Apr 27 17 11:35 AM. Edited 1 time.

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sonarsound.gvc

Tin Man

Posts: 22 Member Since:07/07/2014

#53 [url]

Apr 27 17 4:40 PM

I decided to sell my old avioms and buy elitecoreaudio PM16. With a latency of < 0.878 ms its pretty fast. I like the simplicity of the interface, even though I don't like the diagonally poti layout. But it feels analog on the surface, and it's rock solid built. Something I dont like about the old blue Aviom System is the cheap feel. And the buttons which can go lost so easely. But the thing I really don't understand: Why are there no digital interfaces for all these systems? A friend of mine backward engineered a personal monitor system and built a box to feed it directly with digital signals. It sounds so much better without D/A-A/D Converting.

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jesse decarlo

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,533 Member Since:24/03/2013

#55 [url]

Apr 27 17 5:48 PM

sonarsound wrote:
I decided to sell my old avioms and buy elitecoreaudio PM16. With a latency of < 0.878 ms its pretty fast. I like the simplicity of the interface, even though I don't like the diagonally poti layout. But it feels analog on the surface, and it's rock solid built. Something I dont like about the old blue Aviom System is the cheap feel. And the buttons which can go lost so easely. But the thing I really don't understand: Why are there no digital interfaces for all these systems? A friend of mine backward engineered a personal monitor system and built a box to feed it directly with digital signals. It sounds so much better without D/A-A/D Converting.

The studio I work at has the Hear Back system, which has an optical ADAT input. Unfortunately, though, there is no SMUX capability and people bring 96k projects in frequently, so we use the analog inputs. It doesn't sound amazing and (as others have pointed out) there is nothing good about that limiter knob, but overall I find it adequate. 

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sonarsound.gvc

Tin Man

Posts: 22 Member Since:07/07/2014

#57 [url]

May 3 17 5:18 PM

jesse decarlo wrote:

sonarsound wrote:
I decided to sell my old avioms and buy elitecoreaudio PM16. With a latency of < 0.878 ms its pretty fast. I like the simplicity of the interface, even though I don't like the diagonally poti layout. But it feels analog on the surface, and it's rock solid built. Something I dont like about the old blue Aviom System is the cheap feel. And the buttons which can go lost so easely. But the thing I really don't understand: Why are there no digital interfaces for all these systems? A friend of mine backward engineered a personal monitor system and built a box to feed it directly with digital signals. It sounds so much better without D/A-A/D Converting.

The studio I work at has the Hear Back system, which has an optical ADAT input. Unfortunately, though, there is no SMUX capability and people bring 96k projects in frequently, so we use the analog inputs. It doesn't sound amazing and (as others have pointed out) there is nothing good about that limiter knob, but overall I find it adequate. 

I was not clear, sorry, he did the ADAT Interface for the AVIOM System, It's not 96k because the blue AVIOM aren't running at 96k. But what is the point in that? Yamaha-user can feed it directly from a card and everybody else has to convert? All I would ask for is a digital connection, a simple surface and a decent headphoneamp. No EQ, no funny limiter... 

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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,949 Member Since:20/01/2011

#58 [url]

May 3 17 8:28 PM

So if your session is at 96k (which mine usually are) then you can't run digitally into the headphone system 

Last Edited By: weedywet May 4 17 11:44 AM. Edited 1 time.

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,139 Member Since:23/01/2011

#59 [url]

May 4 17 8:50 AM

sonarsound wrote:
...I was not clear, sorry, he did the ADAT Interface for the AVIOM System, It's not 96k because the blue AVIOM aren't running at 96k...

 
By 'reading between the lines' over the years, it has been implied that 2x sample rates (88.2k & 96k) are not included in the ADAT Standard.  

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,159 Member Since:20/01/2011

#60 [url]

May 5 17 8:31 AM

compasspnt wrote:
podgorny wrote:
There isn't currently a multi-channel headphone system being made which I would prefer over a system assembled out of small analog mixers.

I almost posted a very similar sentiment.

My fave sounding system we ever used was made up ourselves from several little 8 channel Fostex mixers we had hanging around.

Then we got the Furman small system, which was pretty cheap, so we went to the big Furman system, which was much better.

But nothing ever beat the analogue mixers.

All  of these new systems are crazy expensive.

Anyone try the new Behringer?


I agree with you both.

At Paisley we had the very same 1 rack space Fostex 8 channel mixers and a Crown DC-75 in a custom roll-around housing.  Unlike the "mixer on a  stick" approach of the currently available commercial monitor stations, these allowed the musicians to use these as utility tables, Prince used them as keyboard stands in the control room (see photo).

rs-237906-GettyImages-116127342.jpg

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