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gtoledo3

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Posts: 4,000 Member Since:23/10/2013

#21 [url]

Dec 8 16 11:29 AM

The Neve Baxandall style eq had earlier implementations existing in siemens, telefunken, tab, wsw gear.

The solidstate neve amplifier circuit is also similar to the amplifying circuit in some tab U series comps, some related preamps and buffer amps from tab, wsw, etc.

The 2254 is basically a copy of the Siemens U273, with different transformers.

Just some more context. All implemented by Neve with much less of a gap of time.

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owlander

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Posts: 993 Member Since:27/01/2011

#22 [url]

Dec 8 16 12:25 PM

Some of that I knew, some I did not.. Still, doesn't change the nature of the feeding frenzy, as I see it.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to try it out, but as is often the case, you get what you pay for. The preamp sucks, and the eq you can't use without said preamp...unless you spend time and money modifying it, at which point you may as well have bought something decent in the first place.

.02

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owlander

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#24 [url]

Dec 8 16 12:59 PM

Not personally. I heard it compared to another preamp worth a bit more. It sounded kind of flat, and boring, with the prevailing opinion being..."well, it is usable?".

Anyway, considering everything, it appeared to sound like more or less what it was worth....and, like previously mentioned....there could be other said other known issues apart from sound itself. The preamp it was compared to was designed in the US I believe, as a standalone, and fined tuned by listening during the design phase. The difference wasn't unremarkable(on said solo drum kit).

For me, anyway...

Last Edited By: owlander Dec 8 16 1:06 PM. Edited 1 time.

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seth

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#25 [url]

Dec 8 16 1:42 PM

Setting aside the morality for a moment - I can see both positions - and assuming it's legal to copy these circuits the way they're being cloned all over, this device is a total, deliberate attempt at misrepresentation. You can argue about where the line is where it becomes OK to call something a copy. Certainly original or historically correct transformers are important. This gizmo trades on the ignorance of the people who would buy it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the preamp identical in the 1064, 1066, 1073, 1081, 1084, and 1095 units? A BA183 or BA283 board, the transformers, the transistors and the gain control. Slap the number 73 on something and it's supposed to be magical. I have a 1064 and I prefer it to the 1073s I've used. I don't know why. I also have some clones I've built with original BA183 boards and copies of BA183s and they all sound fine. But the transformers, transistors, and gain staging are all the same.

I remember lurking on certain forums where people tend to call each other out for sport, and reading one conversation where a guy called out another guy on why old Neves sound the way they do. So the knucklehead who doesn't know when to shut up says something about the "custom Neve chips." And we're not talking about VRs here, I'm sure the guy had never heard of them. Later he gets called out on what makes an amplifier class A, and he says, "Well, I know it has to pass a lot of stringent tests..." Those are the people who will buy this thing and congratulate themselves for getting a smart deal.

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gtoledo3

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Posts: 4,000 Member Since:23/10/2013

#26 [url]

Dec 8 16 1:51 PM

Just for the record, I posted it as a conversation starter and certainly make no claims as to it's legitimacy or lack thereof :-)

Brad made a really salient point right off the bat - the power format for the 500 suggests that some biggish liberties had to be taken.

I find it interesting from the standpoint of wondering what the actual resemblance is, if any, and wondering what the more audacious cheap-outs are. I wonder if the circuit is in any way related.

Last Edited By: gtoledo3 Dec 8 16 1:57 PM. Edited 1 time.

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gtoledo3

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#27 [url]

Dec 8 16 2:38 PM

Side note - it's interesting how the ethics line of discussion usually come up with Chinese stuff, and not companies from US or Europe that do similar things.

(Especially in this instance, when many of the "original designs" are arguably not completely original anyway.)

It's hard to think of a time where I've heard of Avedis, Heritage, Wunder, Flea, Bock, AMI, etc., just get hammered hard for implementing a design that happened in the past.

Granted, I'm sure the Alctron is reaaaally cheaply constructed.

Last Edited By: gtoledo3 Dec 8 16 2:42 PM. Edited 3 times.

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soapfoot

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#28 [url]

Dec 9 16 9:47 AM

gtoledo3 wrote:
Side note - it's interesting how the ethics line of discussion usually come up with Chinese stuff, and not companies from US or Europe that do similar things.

(Especially in this instance, when many of the "original designs" are arguably not completely original anyway.)

It's hard to think of a time where I've heard of Avedis, Heritage, Wunder, Flea, Bock, AMI, etc., just get hammered hard for implementing a design that happened in the past.

Granted, I'm sure the Alctron is reaaaally cheaply constructed.

Yes... and as far as Mr. Neve himself is concerned anyway, the 1073 is "abandonware" just as much as the U47 is. And if Neumann decided they wanted to (they wouldn't), they could easily "cash in" and offer their OWN alternative-tube U47 for sale... and would all of the copy microphones suddenly become immoral?

On the other hand, there are some special cases... Bill Finnegan pleaded for years with people to please not "clone" his Klon Centaur design, and went to the lengths to "goop" the circuit board, which of course only invited people to painstakingly chip the goop away and copy the pedal anyway, much to Finnegan's chagrin. This actually caused him (at least in part) to give up making the pedal for good, and get into the "cloning" business himself, selling a cheaper version of his own design.

Side note-- Seth and I and my friend Aaron got together one day to test my original Klon, Seth's Klon KTR (Finnegan's own reissue/clone), and Aaron's "build your own clone" version. All 3 sounded noticeably different, which surprised me-- I figured the KTR and the original would sound damn near the same. They were all in the same ballpark, and the KTR was closer to the original than the BYOC, but still...

Just goes to show you that "cloning" is almost never as simple as just pulling out the schematic and copying the circuit. If even a notoriously perfectionistic designer and original manufacturer can't manage to pull off a "clone" of their own design after tweaking and trying to perfect it and delaying the release date several times over years... how much confidence does that give you that others could do it? And this is an overdrive pedal... not exactly rocket science!

brad allen williams

Last Edited By: soapfoot Dec 9 16 9:49 AM. Edited 1 time.

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miquifaye

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Posts: 2 Member Since:28/12/2016

#29 [url]

Dec 28 16 10:02 PM

i bought 2 and they perform well especially on snares and male vocals . tried them on a fender strat and got good results as well. they don't sound cheap at all.
not saying they sound neve-ish but definitely not bad units.

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weedywet

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Posts: 5,770 Member Since:20/01/2011

#30 [url]

Dec 29 16 1:19 AM

miquifaye wrote:
i bought 2 and they perform well especially on snares and male vocals . tried them on a fender strat and got good results as well. they don't sound cheap at all.
not saying they sound neve-ish but definitely not bad units.

 
if they didn't sell them as "Neve-ish" they wouldn't sell any, so let's not play games with that.

meanwhile:
the actual original definition of clone was about producing an identical unit to the original.
Using the term to refer to any 'imitation' is just watering down the language.
 

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weedywet

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#33 [url]

Dec 29 16 12:24 PM

Really? If they just released it as "Hotshot Mic Pre" without any allusions at all as to what it sounds "like" or is "based on"?

I don't think so. 
And in any event, they DO allude to Neve. 

I just don't like the inevitable GS circular discussion that begins with "it's a clone of..." then moves into 'but don't compare it because they (the originals) are "all different" anyway..." and eventually, inevitably, ends up at "no, i just mean it's useful for something on its own whether it sounds like X or not..." when that was never its appeal. 

 

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gtoledo3

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Posts: 4,000 Member Since:23/10/2013

#35 [url]

Dec 31 16 10:02 AM

I was just looking in my email, and couldn't help but be reminded of this thread...

In it was a note about plugin deals. A plugin was for sale, which is a plugin clone of a clone of a NEVE EQ (Scheps 73).

It seems like in a world where someone is selling a computer coded clone of a clone of an EQ that wasn't really too original to begin with, that we may have hit "peak cloning".

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weedywet

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Posts: 5,770 Member Since:20/01/2011

#36 [url]

Dec 31 16 12:21 PM

adam brown wrote:
NEVE!!! NEVE!!! NEVE!!! Obsession?

RND!!! RND!!! RND!!! He has designed better stuff that nobody ever mentions. Why?

 
I actually think the new RND stuff gets mentioned a lot.
But some of us might very well disagree that it's "better stuff"

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adam brown

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Posts: 300 Member Since:23/02/2011

#37 [url]

Jan 16 17 6:29 PM

weedywet wrote:
adam brown wrote:
NEVE!!! NEVE!!! NEVE!!! Obsession?

RND!!! RND!!! RND!!! He has designed better stuff that nobody ever mentions. Why?

 
I actually think the new RND stuff gets mentioned a lot.
But some of us might very well disagree that it's "better stuff"



I forgot the topic was about cheap Neve clone. Sorry.

RND stuff isn't cheap, exactly. My thought previously was, why a clone? He has new gear today that is so much cleaner and way more versatile.

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silvertone

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Posts: 2,573 Member Since:26/01/2011

#38 [url]

Jan 17 17 8:05 AM

His Sheffield line looks great and harken back to his old designs. Something he always said he had no interest in doing.

I'd like to hear the new line, never cared for the Portico series of preamps compared to the 1084, 1073 or 1066 designs. That said I will never ever pay 1k for any preamp when great ones can be had in the 200.00 to 500.00 range.

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soapfoot

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#39 [url]

Jan 17 17 8:47 AM

adam brown wrote:
NEVE!!! NEVE!!! NEVE!!! Obsession?

RND!!! RND!!! RND!!! He has designed better stuff that nobody ever mentions. Why?

You could find some folks that would tell you that with the G&L Legacy, Leo Fender designed a guitar "better" than the stratocaster he released in 1954, and that with the Music Man Stingray, he designed a bass "better" than the Precision Bass. And in some measurable respects, you could certainly support this argument.

But regardless of who believes it's "superior" in design (and by what metric), it will never be "the thing" which has indelibly imprinted its sonic/aesthetic signature on the cultural zeitgeist for decades.

I see the RND stuff the same way. I've used it. It's certainly well-designed and sounds good! We have four channels of Portico at our studio that do get used side-by-side with the older Neve designs. But the original 80 series desks (for all their flaws-- and they have many) are things that entire ways of recording and producing music have grown up around (sort of like a tree that grows around a metal pole that's in its way). 

If we could go back in time and release the RND stuff as a competitor to the 80 series desks, it's entirely possible that music would be different today, and that the RND preamps would've taken off instead. But that's just a thought experiment, because it didn't happen that way-- the way it DID happen is that 80 series desks became a "part" of what people expect and like with respect to the recorded sound of many instruments in pop music. I know I certainly respond to it, still (in a way I do not respond to the RND stuff), even though it's by no means a novelty to me at this point.

brad allen williams

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seth

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Posts: 5,474 Member Since:26/01/2011

#40 [url]

Jan 17 17 9:12 AM

I have one old Neve 1064 module that I love and use probably more than anything else. For reasons I can't explain it sounds better to me than any 1073 I've ever used, which doesn't make sense: the preamps should be exactly the same. But whenever I use other preamps I'm reminded that the differences among good ones are miniscule compared to what comes before it.

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