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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,058 Member Since:20/01/2011

#21 [url]

Dec 11 16 9:19 AM

dcollins wrote:

In RPDF you'll still have some noise-modulation.


I have observed this, and I have found that a much higher level of random noise is required to reduce these artifacts, when compared to the various d*ither recipes...

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jerry tubb

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Posts: 627 Member Since:06/02/2011

#22 [url]

Dec 12 16 9:13 AM

What is the general feeling amongst members about multiple layers of Dither negatively changing the sound of audio?
How many times do you feel comfortable processing a mix with Dither?
As few as possible, or Until you hear negative effects?
Best, JT

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#23 [url]

Dec 12 16 9:39 AM

jerry tubb wrote:
What is the general feeling amongst members about multiple layers of Dither negatively changing the sound of audio?
How many times do you feel comfortable processing a mix with Dither?
As few as possible, or Until you hear negative effects?
Best, JT

As far as whatever goes on in your software's mix engine behind the scenes, when going into a plugin, or when plugins handoff back to the engine, it's best practice to just let it handle it how it handles it. TPDF is likely being used in behind the scenes...

The only time the *user* typically needs to be thinking about applying dither - especially noise shaped dither like Pow-R - is when converting  from 24 (or 32, etc) down to 16.

If you apply more noise shaping dither than needed, you can hear side effects, though how pronounced it is can depend on the source material.

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morespaceecho

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Posts: 2,299 Member Since:29/01/2011

#24 [url]

Dec 12 16 11:02 AM

jerry tubb wrote:
What is the general feeling amongst members about multiple layers of Dither negatively changing the sound of audio?
How many times do you feel comfortable processing a mix with Dither?
As few as possible, or Until you hear negative effects?
Best, JT


 


whether mixing or mastering, i save all intermediate files as 32fp and just dither to 16 at the very end. i see no reason to worry about multiple layers of dither when it's the simplest thing in the world to just avoid it entirely. this has been SOP here since i dunno, 2002 or so.

to me this seems a very reasonable and uncontroversial thing to do, but just watch...


 

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#25 [url]

Dec 12 16 11:09 AM

How do you keep the software or plugins from dithering internally, whenever they use a higher bit depth for a process, and then output whatever bit depth the session is at?

What is the plus of storing at 32 when the incoming data is 24 or less (well, definitely less)?

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morespaceecho

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Posts: 2,299 Member Since:29/01/2011

#28 [url]

Dec 12 16 11:59 AM

see i told you!

no plugins are outputting 24 bit. no daws are operating internally at 24 bit. yes we all know that dither or truncation distortion at the 24 bit level is impossibly low, but as i asked repeatedly last time, why would i add either of them to my files if i don't need to?

no one really concerns themselves with hard drive space in 2016 do they? cmon.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#29 [url]

Dec 12 16 12:19 PM

It's just that they operate higher internally, so that they can give you back the same dynamic range you put in. What plugin process do you do where you need to preserve a higher dynamic range than input, because of something that it did?

It's not a big deal. The end result in the end is so similar most times as to be identical to virtually identical. It just fails the logic test to argue hard for 32 as a storage medium, unless the input is that. It also creates a bigger hit on processing, the amount of data you can read from drive is a bottleneck which you'll hit sooner, and you will also find that you hit up against the memory footprint limit for an app sooner.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion though.

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morespaceecho

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#30 [url]

Dec 12 16 12:45 PM

gtoledo3 wrote:
 What plugin process do you do where you need to preserve a higher dynamic range than input, because of something that it did?

 

anything? as soon as you so much as change the gain .01db, the file size expands to 32fp. why not just save stuff at 32 and never concern yourself with dither?
The end result in the end is so similar most times as to be identical to virtually identical. 


sure. but as i proved to my (if no one else's) satisfaction last time, a 24 bit render is indeed virtually identical, a 32fp render is ACTUALLY 100% identical. why add dither noise or truncation distortion if you don't need to? this seems rudimentary to me. hard drive space isn't an issue, i've never had any problems with processing bottlenecks....

so much for staying out of this hahaha!

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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dcollins

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Posts: 2,343 Member Since:27/01/2011

#31 [url]

Dec 12 16 8:56 PM

jerry tubb wrote:
What is the general feeling amongst members about multiple layers of Dither negatively changing the sound of audio?
How many times do you feel comfortable processing a mix with Dither?
As few as possible, or Until you hear negative effects?
Best, JT
D*ther is added every time the word length is reduced.  From 2000 to 1999 bits or from 24 to 16.  The effects of truncation (not using d*ther and reducing the word length) is _far_ worse than anything adding a small amount of noise would do.

And, because all you are even adding is noise, at a very low (maybe inaudible) level there is never any negative effect from using d*ther.

Now, in a system that is operating all floating point and exchanging data between processing in that format, you could certainly argue that there will be only one step of d*ther in the 24 to 16 bit step for CD.  In a 24 bit delivery world it’s possible that Andy Moorer’s Wither Dither paper is even more applicable.....



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chrisj

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Posts: 969 Member Since:22/02/2011

#32 [url]

Dec 12 16 8:58 PM

If you're interested in modern video stuff, even very low budget (think Xiaomi Yi, $80 for 1080p HD) you look at audio's space/bandwidth requirements and you're like 'LOL' ;)

Ever heard of a Blackmagic Cinema or Pocket Cinema camera? 1080p LOSSLESS (or ProRes). Completely bonkers. Heck, even my new Logitech webcam is prepared to give me Motion JPEG, which is 30 fps with no temporal compression at all (just JPEG on each frame). Turn that on and watch the disk space add gigs in a matter of seconds…

Since we are poking beehives: it was interesting when I recently worked out that the infinitesemal 'grain' and resolution you get on 32 bit floating point ONLY exists on reverb tails and similarly ultra-faint sounds. By the time you get up to full scale, you have… 24 bit fixed point, sort of. And it truncates, and the damage is still cumulative depending on how many stages of processing you've got that are
(a) 32 bit floating point
(b) returning to that for intermediate processing or output or the CoreAudio/VST buss
(c) distinct values at any point
(d) still at -6db or more (possibly -3?) at every stage, and through to the output (not attenuated).

It's amazing what we learn to put up with, really. When I started to noise shape the 32 bit floating point output, I didn't even understand this about louder samples. Yes, you get all the fine detail in the world… if the sample you're looking at is near silence. If it's loud, you're effectively using 24 bit fixed part of the time, for every single math operation on a 'float' (32 bit). We would be significantly better off using 32 bit fixed, and just not distorting it.

BRB, adding 256 different loudnesses of dither to everything in my entire product line ;)

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#33 [url]

Dec 13 16 6:00 AM

I'm a simpleton. Daniel Weiss told me a long time ago that it is fine to apply dither multiple times to the program material when required. That is was "nothing to worry about". Daniel is much smarter than me when it comes to digital audio, so I took his word for it. Dan Lavry told me the same thing years later.

Most clients can't even hear the ticks and pops I'm hand drawing out let alone dither artifacts. Dither is the least of my worries when it comes to digital audio.

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jerry tubb

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Posts: 627 Member Since:06/02/2011

#34 [url]

Dec 13 16 7:28 AM

Good replies, thanks.
I should add that at 24-bit I never really notice negative effects of additional layers of Dither noise.
At 16-bit however, slight adjustments to level for instance, additional Dither noise becomes noticeable, a producer noticed it once or twice.
Hence I always return to the 24-bit session to make adjustments on a master and rebounce the DDP,
I assume this is standard practice with other mastering engineers.
Best, JT

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maarvold

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Posts: 3,093 Member Since:23/01/2011

#35 [url]

Dec 13 16 9:50 AM

gtoledo3 wrote:
Why not have a two car garage for your one car? Why not a four car garage for that matter...

 
Even though we have only 2 cars, a 4 car garage would give me space for a workbench and I could actually take my bike from my back patio and store it in the garage... it would also give my wife room for storing items bought in bulk from Costco (something she's been wanting).  But I digress...

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,058 Member Since:20/01/2011

#36 [url]

Dec 13 16 10:01 AM

maarvold wrote:
gtoledo3 wrote:
Why not have a two car garage for your one car? Why not a four car garage for that matter...

 
Even though we have only 2 cars, a 4 car garage would give me space for a workbench and I could actually take my bike from my back patio and store it in the garage... it would also give my wife room for storing items bought in bulk from Costco (something she's been wanting).  But I digress...
None of which affects the capacity of the car or it's ability to transport things or people.

Dithering 24 bit files or exporting 32 bit floating point files is an "it couldn't hurt"  practice firmly founded in superstition, not science.

...






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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,310 Member Since:04/02/2011

#37 [url]

Dec 13 16 10:10 AM

...and I certainly have my own superstitions when it comes to audio (and other things), so who am I to judge?

brad allen williams

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,058 Member Since:20/01/2011

#38 [url]

Dec 13 16 11:06 AM

soapfoot wrote:
...and I certainly have my own superstitions when it comes to audio (and other things), so who am I to judge?

Online discussions about digital audio make me so sad....

We're living in an era of anti intellectualism, social media has given everybody the same platform, which they can use  to originate or regurgitate information.

It's a gish gallop of solopsism and emotionally charged rhetoric, exactly paralleled by the ubiquity of music making tools and the resultant conformity.

People who should know better shamelessly peddle half truths because it serves their business interests.

Observations and practices based on superstition,  gut feelings,  or anecdotal evidence are not facts, and one should pay close attention when the discussions about things they clearly don't understand make them feel upset,  because therein lies madness.






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morespaceecho

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Posts: 2,299 Member Since:29/01/2011

#39 [url]

Dec 13 16 11:12 AM

zmix wrote:
Dithering 24 bit files or exporting 32 bit floating point files is an "it couldn't hurt"  practice firmly founded in superstition, not science.

 

i'm sorry for making you sad, but i can't help it:

we have a track with a bunch of plugins on it. or just one, whatever. a 32fp render of this track will be exactly the same as the source. this is easily verified with a null test. a 24 bit render will be almost exactly the same, except there'll be either truncation distortion or dither noise added. also easily verified with a null test.

how is this anything other than straight up rudimentary bulletproof science? there's nothing superstitious about it. saying "it's happening at a level that's far too low to hear" is fine and i agree with you, but that's like telling a scientist "oh please, if you need a microscope to see it, it can't possibly be important."
 

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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minister

Gold Finger

Posts: 572 Member Since:27/01/2011

#40 [url]

Dec 13 16 11:24 AM

zmix wrote:

soapfoot wrote:...and I certainly have my own superstitions when it comes to audio (and other things), so who am I to judge?

Online discussions about digital audio make me so sad....

We're living in an era of anti intellectualism, social media has given everybody the same platform, which they can use  to originate or regurgitate information.

It's a gish gallop of solopsism and emotionally charged rhetoric, exactly paralleled by the ubiquity of music making tools and the resultant conformity.

People who should know better shamelessly peddle half truths because it serves their business interests.

Observations and practices based on superstition,  gut feelings,  or anecdotal evidence are not facts, and one should pay close attention when the discussions about things they clearly don't understand make them feel upset,  because therein lies madness.

Then agin, there are those who learn from those and these discussions who mightn't not otherwise...................................................
 

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