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morespaceecho

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,299 Member Since:29/01/2011

#21 [url]

Jan 18 17 1:45 AM

soapfoot wrote:

morespaceecho wrote:
i think i've grown allergic to quantized drums though (i blame ms morespace's steady barrage of 80s music)

Of course, MUCH 80s music isn't "quantized"; it just has some rock-solid drumming by players like Yogi Horton, JR Robinson, etc!


i dunno about "much". how about "some"? at least on the stations ms mse listens to, i'd say it's probably 75/25 drum machine to real drummers. 

i like my rhythm tight, so it's not so much the quantization that bugs me, it's the totally unvarying dynamics. 127 all the time.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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natenajar

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Posts: 843 Member Since:14/04/2011

#22 [url]

Jan 18 17 6:27 AM

weedywet wrote:
it's the mindset, though

if you want to do another solo, are you willing to wipe the one we have?

that's often a helpful way to think


With my guitarist hat on, this is how I work. If I find myself doing multiple unsatisfactory takes, they aren't saved, I just work until I get the right one. And it's nearly always obvious when it is the right one and then that's that and we move on to the next thing....

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seth

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Posts: 5,569 Member Since:26/01/2011

#23 [url]

Jan 18 17 8:52 AM

natenajar wrote:

weedywet wrote:it's the mindset, though


if you want to do another solo, are you willing to wipe the one we have?


that's often a helpful way to think




With my guitarist hat on, this is how I work. If I find myself doing multiple unsatisfactory takes, they aren't saved, I just work until I get the right one. And it's nearly always obvious when it is the right one and then that's that and we move on to the next thing....

That has its risks too - players tend to hyper-focus on their performance until it's perfect without being good. I've often kept a take that was a great performance in the context of the record though not what the player intended. Then the fireworks start.

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,310 Member Since:04/02/2011

#24 [url]

Jan 18 17 9:28 AM

morespaceecho wrote:

soapfoot wrote:

morespaceecho wrote:
i think i've grown allergic to quantized drums though (i blame ms morespace's steady barrage of 80s music)

Of course, MUCH 80s music isn't "quantized"; it just has some rock-solid drumming by players like Yogi Horton, JR Robinson, etc!


i dunno about "much". how about "some"? at least on the stations ms mse listens to, i'd say it's probably 75/25 drum machine to real drummers. 

i like my rhythm tight, so it's not so much the quantization that bugs me, it's the totally unvarying dynamics. 127 all the time.

I suppose it depends which 80s music!

brad allen williams

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

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#25 [url]

Jan 18 17 9:34 AM

seth wrote:

natenajar wrote:

weedywet wrote:it's the mindset, though


if you want to do another solo, are you willing to wipe the one we have?


that's often a helpful way to think




With my guitarist hat on, this is how I work. If I find myself doing multiple unsatisfactory takes, they aren't saved, I just work until I get the right one. And it's nearly always obvious when it is the right one and then that's that and we move on to the next thing....

That has its risks too - players tend to hyper-focus on their performance until it's perfect without being good. I've often kept a take that was a great performance in the context of the record though not what the player intended. Then the fireworks start.

This is a great point, and brings three things to mind that support it:

1) I can't tell you how many times I've done a solo live on the take, wanted to replace it, and been told "no!" by producer, artist, or trusted engineer. Then, listening back through that lens assuming it's good (instead of assuming it's bad based on the way I felt when I played it), I can almost always hear what they thought was special, which is almost always a sort of personality or energy or human quality my ego would've missed while it was busy being bugged by an unintended note, or bit of sloppy technique or whatever.  

2) Very on-topic: at least twice working on multitrack tape I've done a solo live on the take, listened back, thought it was shit, resolved to go back and "fix" it on a later day, then later put the reel up and couldn't for the life of me hear what was supposed to be wrong with the original solo, and kept the live take. 

3) With the above two in mind-- a lot of jazz and acoustic music gets recorded at our place, and it's pretty much standard operating procedure for people to ask to punch things on their solos or re-do solos without listening to what they did or asking anyone else to. And they go and do ten little punches on their solo, and it stays that way forever... their ego is satisfied, but nobody ever listens to the 'flawed' original to see if it might be better, or have a stronger energy or personality. Based on personal experience I feel this is a mistake... classic "perfect is the enemy of good". 

brad allen williams

Last Edited By: soapfoot Jan 18 17 9:39 AM. Edited 3 times.

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ktownson

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,155 Member Since:22/01/2011

#27 [url]

Jan 18 17 11:18 AM

Terry, I've read that Jimmy Page adhered to a "three take rule." Was that your experience with him?

"Kerry fixed the stereo, and now it doesn't work." (My six-year-old sister)

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#30 [url]

Jan 18 17 2:35 PM

That's really interesting.... I had read that Comfortably Numb was pieced together, and that this was the typical methodology for Gilmour. Play a bunch of solos, comp together the best bits.

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ktownson

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Posts: 3,155 Member Since:22/01/2011

#32 [url]

Jan 18 17 2:39 PM

Gilmour has said Comfortably Numb was a comp:

“I banged out five or six solos,” Gilmour says. “From there I just followed my usual procedure, which is to listen back to each solo and make a chart, noting which bits are good. Then, by following the chart, I create one great composite solo by whipping one fader up, then another fader, jumping from phrase to phrase until everything flows together. That’s the way we did it on ‘Comfortably Numb.’”

--Guitar World, 03/06/2016 by Guitar World Staff

http://www.guitarworld.com/100-greatest-guitar-solos-no-4-comfortably-numb-david-gilmour

Not that that makes it any less of a great solo(s)

Edit:  George is quicker on the trigger than I ...

"Kerry fixed the stereo, and now it doesn't work." (My six-year-old sister)

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gtoledo3

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Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#33 [url]

Jan 18 17 2:42 PM

That interview is from way longer ago than 2016 though, I think that's the date for the reprint.

I remember reading it in the 90s.

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maarvold

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Posts: 3,093 Member Since:23/01/2011

#35 [url]

Jan 20 17 10:15 AM

weedywet wrote:
it's the mindset, though

if you want to do another solo, are you willing to wipe the one we have?

that's often a helpful way to think

 
That was exactly my point: before you 'throw more paint on the canvas', you have to truly make a decision about whether its the right thing to do because there is no Command-z.  
seth wrote:
...That has its risks too - players tend to hyper-focus on their performance until it's perfect without being good. I've often kept a take that was a great performance in the context of the record though not what the player intended. Then the fireworks start.


This is why it's so important to capture that first take: often everything else is played in response to it.  And, to me, a key element of a great solo is that the player is 'living in the moment'.  People often aren't thinking about much on the first pass and that's when magic can happen, or happen more easily.  YMMV.  

Last Edited By: maarvold Jan 20 17 10:27 AM. Edited 2 times.

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bigbone

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Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#37 [url]

Jan 20 17 12:10 PM

maarvold wrote:

 

This is why it's so important to capture that first take: often everything else is played in response to it.  And, to me, a key element of a great solo is that the player is 'living in the moment'.  People often aren't thinking about much on the first pass and that's when magic can happen, or happen more easily.  YMMV.  

I always make sure that my take will be THE ONE when the red light is on. most of the time feel and magic are better than perfection. YMMV........

JN
 

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

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#38 [url]

Jan 20 17 12:19 PM

bigbone wrote:

maarvold wrote:

 

This is why it's so important to capture that first take: often everything else is played in response to it.  And, to me, a key element of a great solo is that the player is 'living in the moment'.  People often aren't thinking about much on the first pass and that's when magic can happen, or happen more easily.  YMMV.  

I always make sure that my take will be THE ONE when the red light is on. most of the time feel and magic are better than perfection. YMMV........

JN
 

Yes, and rare is the musician that can have that perspective about their OWN performances, even if they're capable of recognizing that in everyone else.

 

brad allen williams

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morespaceecho

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Posts: 2,299 Member Since:29/01/2011

#39 [url]

Jan 20 17 12:19 PM

this was certainly not 'magic' but on one recent tune, i needed a guitar solo....after i did the rhythm guitars i thought oh i'll just throw down a placeholder solo, just to have something there. one take, no thinking whatsoever. and of course, on repeated listens i got used to it and now can't imagine any other solo being there.

www.oldcolonymastering.com

morespaceecho.bandcamp.com

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resolectric

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Posts: 645 Member Since:26/01/2011

#40 [url]

Jan 30 17 8:46 AM

I always mimic a "Rewinding" time before punching REC again.
I think it's part of the process to let the musician take a few deep breaths, think about what he's doing, adjust in the seat and repeat.
The "again... again... again..." methodology possible with a DAW takes away most of that and, i feel, isn't helpful to anyone, talent or engineer.

Last Edited By: resolectric Jan 30 17 12:19 PM. Edited 1 time.

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