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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,866 Member Since:20/01/2011

#41 [url]

May 4 17 11:50 AM

it's not ALL about the music

or at least it's not in the literal sense only about the underlying music to the exclusion of caring about the audio quality.

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gtoledo3

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,110 Member Since:23/10/2013

#42 [url]

May 4 17 12:02 PM

Jukeboxes are an old format.

That's what Spotify is.

Currently, people like the jukebox format more than what they get out of other offerings.

We have long ago hit a point of diminishing returns when it comes to sonic quality.

Now we can improve:
-choice
-miniaturization
-infrastructure to deliver the media

There is *possibly* some sort of niche for audiovisual products, with interactive elements as a way to present an album type concept... but I don't think anyone has really cracked that nut yet. And people aren't really clamoring for that. It's not really solving any problem for them.

Just like PONO was only solving a problem that was a very marginal concern for the majority, while GIVING them a handful of new problems.

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jesse decarlo

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,510 Member Since:24/03/2013

#43 [url]

May 4 17 12:45 PM

maarvold wrote:


Regarding sonic evaluations: I did a cd that recently went to manufacturing.  The client called me up and said the CDs from the production run didn't sound like the files in the DDP file.  My usual method when trying to sort out things like this is A. a null test, which his ripped example passed perfectly with the original and B. Import into Pro Tools, align the two examples to sample accuracy, pick a short section (like a 4 bar phrase) and loop it.  I like to use the Solo option that cancels the previously solo'ed track when a new track is solo'ed--this means a single mouse click switches between A and B.  Even after knowing that it had passed the null test, it was so unbelievably easy to swear there was a difference just by virtue of the mouse click that I really had to concentrate hard and spend some time before I signed off on them sounding the same.  
 

I'm sure you already looked into this, but for the purpose of our discussion, did your client listen to the CD through the same DAC as he used to listen to the DDP? I have heard of people being disappointed by the sound of a CD after manufacture, but then realizing that it's because they're playing it on an actual CD player (maybe with crappy DAC), while they'd been listening to the mixes and masters for approval on another device, even if it was through the same speakers/headphones. 

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,312 Member Since:04/02/2011

#44 [url]

May 4 17 12:55 PM

maarvold wrote:
Even after knowing that it had passed the null test, it was so unbelievably easy to swear there was a difference just by virtue of the mouse click

Having experienced similar things, I must say this is why I just stopped caring about the extreme margins of fidelity quite so much recently. If I can't even trust myself to be able to adequately evaluate whether the tiny things I'm changing are making it better, worse, or no change, then what am I doing, really? I might as well leave it up to chance, since that's effectively what's happening anyway. 

Pro Tools recently changed how they draw waveforms within crossfades (perhaps with version 12? I can't remember). Anyway I like to separate regions and use clip gain + (sometimes very long) crossfades as a means of doing pre-insert rides (on vocals, in particular). When the crossfaded waveforms started rendering differently, it seriously f'd with my ability to "hear" the ride. I was so far biased by what I was seeing (and presumably, had been all along!) that I would swear things sounded messed up. The thing is, it had never even occurred to me that this might be influencing me before.

Still, even knowing this, I have to close my eyes and listen to the ride without looking at the screen before I can even trust. 

Same with edit points... I can swear that i can "hear" a perfectly good edit, until I turn the damn screen OFF, and then suddenly I can't remember where the edit was. 

brad allen williams

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,093 Member Since:23/01/2011

#45 [url]

May 4 17 1:20 PM

jesse decarlo wrote:

maarvold wrote:


Regarding sonic evaluations: I did a cd that recently went to manufacturing.  The client called me up and said the CDs from the production run didn't sound like the files in the DDP file.  My usual method when trying to sort out things like this is A. a null test, which his ripped example passed perfectly with the original and B. Import into Pro Tools, align the two examples to sample accuracy, pick a short section (like a 4 bar phrase) and loop it.  I like to use the Solo option that cancels the previously solo'ed track when a new track is solo'ed--this means a single mouse click switches between A and B.  Even after knowing that it had passed the null test, it was so unbelievably easy to swear there was a difference just by virtue of the mouse click that I really had to concentrate hard and spend some time before I signed off on them sounding the same.  

 

I'm sure you already looked into this, but for the purpose of our discussion, did your client listen to the CD through the same DAC as he used to listen to the DDP? I have heard of people being disappointed by the sound of a CD after manufacture, but then realizing that it's because they're playing it on an actual CD player (maybe with crappy DAC), while they'd been listening to the mixes and masters for approval on another device, even if it was through the same speakers/headphones. 

 
He had ripped from the CD and was playing back 2 files that were both "sitting on the desktop".  This is WAY too ambiguous of a location for my taste: kind of like saying "they were in the cloud".  Same DAC--yes, same everything else--probably not.  
soapfoot wrote:
Pro Tools recently changed how they draw waveforms within crossfades...

Yes: everything in the fade looks low in level.  Not helpful.  But, being the 'nut' that I am, I like to drag AutoTuned regions to the left to line them up correctly before I crossfade: I LIKE the fact that I can now see the ghost of the underlying region so I can match the waveforms up.  It's now easy to get seamless crossfades between non-AT and AT.  

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dougrogers

Silverado

Posts: 139 Member Since:21/02/2011

#46 [url]

May 4 17 6:18 PM

jesse decarlo wrote:
Sooner or later Spotify will probably offer lossless streaming for an additional fee. Why wouldn't they?

 

Tidal already offers this.

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chrisj

Gold Finger

Posts: 969 Member Since:22/02/2011

#47 [url]

May 4 17 6:27 PM

weedywet wrote:
I have a friend who indeed compared his phone to PONO and went with PONO.
It sounded better to my ears for sure.

I can criticize their marketing blitz and STILL be sorry to see it go.

I DON'T think current formats are "good enough"


Yup. Mine still sounds great. I own one. On it, I can hear whether stuff is good or not. It's blatantly better-sounding. Still works, too.

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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owlander

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,034 Member Since:27/01/2011

#48 [url]

May 11 17 8:17 PM

Exactly. Better is better...politics aside. Doesn't matter if it failed or not. It's hard to tell what something 'sounds' like by 'looking' at measurements...

Paper 'weight'.

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John Eppstein

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,219 Member Since:31/05/2015

#49 [url]

May 12 17 1:20 AM

gtoledo3 wrote:
Jukeboxes are an old format.

That's what Spotify is.

Currently, people like the jukebox format more than what they get out of other offerings.

We have long ago hit a point of diminishing returns when it comes to sonic quality.

Now we can improve:
-choice
-miniaturization
-infrastructure to deliver the media

There is *possibly* some sort of niche for audiovisual products, with interactive elements as a way to present an album type concept... but I don't think anyone has really cracked that nut yet. And people aren't really clamoring for that. It's not really solving any problem for them.

Just like PONO was only solving a problem that was a very marginal concern for the majority, while GIVING them a handful of new problems.

If Spotify paid like a jukebox I doubt we'd have a problem.

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mdm

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,721 Member Since:27/01/2011

#50 [url]

May 13 17 5:04 AM

There is nothing available, so far, that can substitute AAA vinyl records, as far as profitability for the producers/artists and hi-fi friendlyness.  

To hear a vinyl record, done properly, you need expensive playback equipment, including the right type of amp and speakers that will highlight AAA vinyl's strong points.  It can also be played back on shitty equipment and it wears out, which means you pay to play.  

And, you can sell a record, whereas a download is licensed.  That makes the initial investment justifiable. 

No brainer, IMO

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#51 [url]

May 13 17 6:22 AM

No brainer... expect most bands that I deal with whole recording budgets don't equal what the vinyl cost to produce. My guess would be most bands don't even make any profit on vinyl in the end. It is a big promotional tool though. Looks good. Is fun to hold and look at.

As for sound, every time I hear a tick and pop it reminds me of why I don't like them medium. To me all that distracts from the music. I'm sure it's just my ME ears but vinyl is not fun for me to listen to. It becomes annoying to me after a while.

Funny how people are looking to an accent inferior medium as a savior for the industry. Every band asks me about it, when I tell them the actual cost you should see the look on their face. Then they just post their music to a free streaming service. Many are even skipping making the CD.

The one common thing is everybody is looking for some medium to save the industry. We have a medium. We have a means to control it, we have a means to track it. We just don't have any laws to protect us or anyone to police it.

Life is funny... unfortunately it's our livelihood we are talking about... and have been for 15 fucking years now, so don't expect things to change. We live in a self centered very greedy world now when it comes to corporations and business, I myself don't ever expect that to change in our life time... except to get worse.

Good luck everyone.

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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chrisj

Gold Finger

Posts: 969 Member Since:22/02/2011

#52 [url]

May 13 17 8:03 AM

Something else about Pono: you know, I've got various studio gear where sometimes I need to feed it audio. I can drive a stereo guitar amp into speakers in my drum room to simulate other musicians, and I've been thinking about getting an old Akai sampler for triggering sounds because some of the old Akai samplers have incredibly tight, jitter-free MIDI performance and I can use that even now.

A lot of that stuff, I can't integrate into a modern DAW environment very easily. But I can hook a Pono's output jack to the inputs of the Akai… and pipe any digital audio at 192/24 if I like, right into the sampler as if it was a live mic. If I have a drum or hi-hat and I want it to be as if I had a digital in, that's the closest thing. Optimal.

I have a car now (an exciting purchase! a car payment!) which has an aux jack into the stereo. I'm already plotting to upgrade the speakers to Infinity Kappas, and possibly find some booster-stage amplifier, to make an audio 'sleeper', that looks normal but can wow people with the sonics. Same thing. I could patch a Pono into the aux, and bypass the normal CD player and radio, and it'd scale up to the equivalent of full-vinyl-analog but without the clicks and pops.

If anybody is anxious to sell off their audio toblerone wedges for pennies because Pono is soooo dead, please drop me a line. Or if you know people who are literally throwing them away. I'll take those things off your hands, quite happy to ;) having a really really high performance audio generator that can take many DAW audio formats is just plain useful.

Hell, you could DJ off a few of them instead of CD players. Might not be as convenient for actively operating them, but the sound would be better on huge club systems. If you're the 'wave your arms and pretend to move knobs' type it would be absolutely perfect :D

Chris Johnson, airwindows.com

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,060 Member Since:20/01/2011

#53 [url]

May 13 17 8:21 AM

silvertone wrote:
No brainer... expect most bands that I deal with whole recording budgets don't equal what the vinyl cost to produce. My guess would be most bands don't even make any profit on vinyl in the end. It is a big promotional tool though. Looks good. Is fun to hold and look at.

As for sound, every time I hear a tick and pop it reminds me of why I don't like them medium. To me all that distracts from the music. I'm sure it's just my ME ears but vinyl is not fun for me to listen to. It becomes annoying to me after a while.

Funny how people are looking to an accent inferior medium as a savior for the industry. Every band asks me about it, when I tell them the actual cost you should see the look on their face. Then they just post their music to a free streaming service. Many are even skipping making the CD.

The one common thing is everybody is looking for some medium to save the industry. We have a medium. We have a means to control it, we have a means to track it. We just don't have any laws to protect us or anyone to police it.

Life is funny... unfortunately it's our livelihood we are talking about... and have been for 15 fucking years now, so don't expect things to change. We live in a self centered very greedy world now when it comes to corporations and business, I myself don't ever expect that to change in our life time... except to get worse.

Good luck everyone.
QFE


"Hi-Res" and "Vinyls"[sic] are the "coal jobs" of the music industry.. 

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,312 Member Since:04/02/2011

#54 [url]

May 13 17 8:59 AM

zmix wrote:

silvertone wrote:No brainer... expect most bands that I deal with whole recording budgets don't equal what the vinyl cost to produce. My guess would be most bands don't even make any profit on vinyl in the end. It is a big promotional tool though. Looks good. Is fun to hold and look at.


As for sound, every time I hear a tick and pop it reminds me of why I don't like them medium. To me all that distracts from the music. I'm sure it's just my ME ears but vinyl is not fun for me to listen to. It becomes annoying to me after a while.


Funny how people are looking to an accent inferior medium as a savior for the industry. Every band asks me about it, when I tell them the actual cost you should see the look on their face. Then they just post their music to a free streaming service. Many are even skipping making the CD.


The one common thing is everybody is looking for some medium to save the industry. We have a medium. We have a means to control it, we have a means to track it. We just don't have any laws to protect us or anyone to police it.


Life is funny... unfortunately it's our livelihood we are talking about... and have been for 15 fucking years now, so don't expect things to change. We live in a self centered very greedy world now when it comes to corporations and business, I myself don't ever expect that to change in our life time... except to get worse.


Good luck everyone.

QFE


"Hi-Res" and "Vinyls"[sic] are the "coal jobs" of the music industry.. 

This all rings very true. Both of you.

Also-- there's much "left on the table" with current digital consumer music interfaces. It's almost as if the people creating the platforms don't know what it's like to love music and go through a discovery phase/journey/rabbit hole themselves...

I think consumer enthusiasm for music could rachet up considerably via streaming platforms with just a few small tweaks...

brad allen williams

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jaykadis

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,421 Member Since:24/01/2011

#55 [url]

May 13 17 10:40 AM

silvertone wrote:

As for sound, every time I hear a tick and pop it reminds me of why I don't like them medium. To me all that distracts from the music. I'm sure it's just my ME ears but vinyl is not fun for me to listen to. It becomes annoying to me after a while.

 

This is exactly how I always felt about vinyl. After struggling to get the best sound to tape, I was always disappointed in how the vinyl sounded in comparison. Certainly there were great sounding records made, but eventualy even those began to degrade and the pops/clcks really bothered me. Even bought an SAE 5000 to try to reduce the impulse noise but it only worked marginally.

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,060 Member Since:20/01/2011

#56 [url]

May 13 17 11:44 AM

I just want to bring to light the straw man that keeps appearing in this thread:

Pono and high quality audio reproduction are not synonymous, nor are they exclusive.


There are, and have always been countless options available to anyone who was even slightly dismayed by the fidelity of their playback system.

However, fear based, anti intellectual and highly cynical marketing schemes, like those used by the proponents of Pono, only depricate our efforts to produce the best records we can.


Claro?



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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,312 Member Since:04/02/2011

#57 [url]

May 13 17 7:01 PM

For what it's worth, (related only to the left turn this conversation has taken, and not really trying to make or refute any point)--

I just put on a record I got in the mail. A moderately-OK pressing of some very good new music that came out this year. Nothing "special." I clamped it down to my player (a VPI scout), ran a cheap record brush across each side once, and played it. Literally zero pops or tics; no audible surface noise despite being very dynamic and quiet acoustic (mostly) music. Sounded great, really fun to listen to.

Vinyl is not going to "save" any industry (except maybe the vinyl industry!), but it's also not necessarily a sonically-flawed medium. A practically flawed one, perhaps--easily damaged, and sensitive to poor handling and poor playback equipment.

But the noise and tics and pops don't have to be a definite tradeoff, if you've got good records in good shape and something good to play them on.

brad allen williams

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jaykadis

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,421 Member Since:24/01/2011

#58 [url]

May 13 17 7:34 PM

Modern vinyl pressings are undoubtedly superior to the average million-copy mass productions of the '60s and '70s. Careful small-scale production versus rushed industrial pressings. Starting out as a recording enthusiast, I did a lot of work with marginal equipment and clicks, pops, hum and myriad other sonic disruptions became the focus of attention for elimination. Unfortunately I couldn't fail to notice that stuff in a finished product.

As far as the sound of vinyl, I like 45 rpm. If I do another recording with my band, it'll be a 7" 45.

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zmix

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,060 Member Since:20/01/2011

#59 [url]

May 13 17 8:46 PM

I've had some fantastically good vinyl pressed in the last few years...

Listening to a test pressing is so soothing, mostly because it screams" "DONE..!" like no other medium...

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knoppenman

Tin Man

Posts: 43 Member Since:03/07/2012

#60 [url]

May 14 17 3:18 AM

zmix wrote:
I've had some fantastically good vinyl pressed in the last few years...

Listening to a test pressing is so soothing, mostly because it screams" "DONE..!" like no other medium...

So true!
 

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