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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#21 [url]

soapfoot wrote:
It's not "making believe they can play."

It's just a different set of skills that have to be developed. The electric guitar and trap kit were once ridiculed as "not real instruments," too.

The skill set of "drag and drop", "cut and paste".  

At least we had to work to get the samples, it still involved real recording, it still took a real "skill set".  

No early synth had a preset so the keyboard player had to know what all those funny pictures on the synthesizer meant.  No one I know even bothers to learn the basics... so how do you develop a skill set when you don't learn the basics?  Simple, you don't... you pretend.

There is a reason our livelihood is in the toilet kids.  No appreciation = no sales.  

Everyone thinks they can do it themselves... and they're right, they can.  All you have to do is drag and drop and who the fuck can't do that?

Man I'm swearing a lot to day... 

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#22 [url]

silvertone wrote:

soapfoot wrote:
It's not "making believe they can play."

It's just a different set of skills that have to be developed. The electric guitar and trap kit were once ridiculed as "not real instruments," too.

The skill set of "drag and drop", "cut and paste".  

At least we had to work to get the samples, it still involved real recording, it still took a real "skill set".  

No early synth had a preset so the keyboard player had to know what all those funny pictures on the synthesizer meant.  No one I know even bothers to learn the basics... so how do you develop a skill set when you don't learn the basics?  Simple, you don't... you pretend.

There is a reason our livelihood is in the toilet kids.  No appreciation = no sales.  

Everyone thinks they can do it themselves... and they're right, they can.  All you have to do is drag and drop and who the fuck can't do that?

Man I'm swearing a lot to day... 




I fucking agreed with you 100%......About the fucking swearing, i seen worst....... :)  :)

JN

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 343 Member Since:11/10/2013

#23 [url]

lol

great stuff as usual. you guys crack me up to. Cubase is loaded with loops, synths and instruments and I have looked into some of them and I htink alot of them I can use to try and get this sort of ambeint beat thing going. I was listening to some of the more melodic stuff, its almost traance or meditative? best way i can describe it. lots of stringy synth layers, loops and beats, etc

but I also am listening to the harder edged pop stuff as well, it seems to really be a different mindset to build and mix these songs, at least its foreign to me. But I am going to try some simple loops and omnisphere type pads and see what happens, kind of go from there. the mixing is interesting to me as well. There are some youtube vids on mixing pop stuff so i may check those out as well.

I have about 4 rough "albums" in the can and am taking a break form the normal stuff and thought I would try something totally new and different, its alot harder than I thought though since i have no idea where to really start,

thanks!

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podgorny

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,330 Member Since:27/01/2011

#24 [url]

bigbone wrote:

silvertone wrote:

 




I fucking agreed with you 100%......About the fucking swearing, i seen worst....... :)  :)

JN

 
I'm glad you guys agree, but it appears that neither of you knows what you're talking about.

One, this thread is about modern pop music. I don't know anyone who's making hit records using pre-made loops. Rather, I know several very talented musicians using a plethora of tools from every era to create music (case in point, look at the video I posted in the What Have You Done Lately thread).

Two, Roland Junos and Jupiters and Sequential Circuits Prophets DEFINITELY had presets, unless you're talking about synths even earlier than that, like a Minimoog D... Oh wait, those came with recommended settings in the manual...

Kyle Mann :: www.kylemann.com

Last Edited By: podgorny . Edited 1 time.

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extrememixing

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,315 Member Since:02/02/2011

#25 [url]

podgorny wrote:

I'm glad you guys agree, but it appears that neither of you knows what you're talking about.

One, this thread is about modern pop music. I don't know anyone who's making hit records using pre-made loops. Rather, I know several very talented musicians using a plethora of tools from every era to create music (case in point, look at the video I posted in the What Have You Done Lately thread).

Two, Roland Junos and Jupiters and Sequential Circuits Prophets DEFINITELY had presets, unless you're talking about synths even earlier than that, like a Minimoog D... Oh wait, those came with recommended settings in the manual...
Yes.  If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.  They're not, so it isn't.

Steve

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,312 Member Since:04/02/2011

#27 [url]

silvertone wrote:

soapfoot wrote:
It's not "making believe they can play."

It's just a different set of skills that have to be developed. The electric guitar and trap kit were once ridiculed as "not real instruments," too.

The skill set of "drag and drop", "cut and paste".  

At least we had to work to get the samples, it still involved real recording, it still took a real "skill set".  

No early synth had a preset so the keyboard player had to know what all those funny pictures on the synthesizer meant.  No one I know even bothers to learn the basics... so how do you develop a skill set when you don't learn the basics?  Simple, you don't... you pretend.

There is a reason our livelihood is in the toilet kids.  No appreciation = no sales.  

Everyone thinks they can do it themselves... and they're right, they can.  All you have to do is drag and drop and who the fuck can't do that?

Man I'm swearing a lot to day... 

I disagree strongly with your perception of these tools and methods, as a result of working closely with some brilliant musicians who work in these media.

Some of them are even musicians who are incredible virtuosi on "traditional" instruments like piano, but who choose to work in these media instead. Others are more "native" to these media, but it doesn't matter.

Art is art, and skill is skill. 

"drag and drop" "cut and paste" won't get you ANYWHERE without some creative vision and skill. NOWHERE. These platforms do not write the music for you. You must do that. They do not have ideas. You must.

And people do. These people work hard, same as you or me. They spend tens of thousands of hours perfecting their craft and shedding, just like you or me. More importantly, they are up against ALL THE SAME challenges of trying to make a livelihood from their work in a post-intellectual-property era.

WHY would we want to tear them down? These are creative, skilled folks fighting the SAME EXACT FIGHT that we are. 

 

brad allen williams

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bigbone

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 2,241 Member Since:27/01/2011

#28 [url]

podgorny wrote:

bigbone wrote:

silvertone wrote:


 




I fucking agreed with you 100%......About the fucking swearing, i seen worst....... :)  :)

JN

 
I'm glad you guys agree, but it appears that neither of you knows what you're talking about.

One, this thread is about modern pop music. I don't know anyone who's making hit records using pre-made loops. Rather, I know several very talented musicians using a plethora of tools from every era to create music (case in point, look at the video I posted in the What Have You Done Lately thread).

Two, Roland Junos and Jupiters and Sequential Circuits Prophets DEFINITELY had presets, unless you're talking about synths even earlier than that, like a Minimoog D... Oh wait, those came with recommended settings in the manual...


I'm glad there are guy like you to show how hit song are made !!!!!

JN

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weedywet

Ruby Baby

Posts: 5,871 Member Since:20/01/2011

#29 [url]

podgorny wrote:
 I don't know anyone who's making hit records using pre-made loops. Rather, I know several very talented musicians using a plethora of tools from every era to create music

 
while I agree with the second part, I know plenty of pop hitmakers who start with, and incorporate, "pre-made" loops

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soapfoot

Ruby Baby

Posts: 7,312 Member Since:04/02/2011

#30 [url]

I just reject the idea that there's a "right way" or a "wrong way" to create art, or that one way of working has more value, inherently, than another. Many times, historical perspective is the only thing that meaningfully sorts these things out, free from human inertia, cognitive bias, and misleading senses of declinism.

Humans-- particularly adult humans-- tend to be closed-minded by default, especially when it comes to things we love and revere.

But just look at the news headlines from yesterday. A Basquiat sold for $110.5 million, breaking records both for a Sotheby's auction and for a work by an American artist. Basquiat was, among other things, a graffiti artist, and the work in question is clearly influenced by his background there. In the 1980s, graffiti art and street art were not considered "real" art. But now Basquiat is being mentioned in the same breath as Picasso, just a few decades later.

I believe it's at our own peril that we dismiss entire creative processes as invalid. Particularly those that are so clearly capable of moving an audience. And it's doubly counterproductive to "blame" those creative processes for a decline in music sales-- which is so clearly NOT the fault of the music. The music did not generate an infrastructure for stealing itself two decades ago, did not turn a blind eye to this clearly illegal practice, and didn't remain idle for long enough that "free music" would become so expected as to feel like a "right" to the average listener.

brad allen williams

Last Edited By: soapfoot . Edited 2 times.

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#31 [url]

God, perspective people... everyone is so dogmatic.

It's fucking art. There is no one way. I never mean to imply there is only one way. If it seems like I am, It is not my intent. I appreciate art in every form... some just bore me. That's all.

I don't think you need a skill set to drag and drop, my nieces and nephews create interesting music in GarageBand with absolutely no music education behind them. I understand what you are saying Brad but this pretending and playing is what gets people interested in music (and it is pretending for them). Many bore of it and when they try to learn a "real" instrument, it's too hard. Note I use words like many... not all. Some stick with it and develop a skill set. As we all know this takes time and effort. My perspective is just different than yours I guess.

Brad I've worked with artist in every media for four decades now... still do. Yes talent is good to have but don't even try to convince me you need it to succeed or have a hit. That is just dead wrong. I watched many an untalented asshole become a superstar over the years and so have you.

Loops bore me... for decades now. Drum machines are the same. If you lived the 80's you would know every pop production started with a drum loop. Every fucking pop song... boring. I programmed Linn drums and Emulators for a decade but I know nothing about pop music.

Apparently some of you weren't born when I was on the road. For a keyboard player to get their next part ready not only did they have to know what to change but also do it fast and sometimes in a certain order because they were still playing the other section. If you toured through this era you would know the level of skill that was needed just to play your next part.

Pop music blows in my world. I did it to death in the 70's, 80's and part of the 90's. It blew then, it blows now... but that's just my opinion. Doesn't mean I hate it, doesn't mean I don't listen to it (I am married), doesn't mean I can't appreciate what went into creating it.

I'm off to go build my garage.

Good luck on writing some pop songs with loops, synths and samples... from my perspective it's very easy to do and you'll probably have a blast doing it. It a lot of fun... at first...

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

Last Edited By: silvertone . Edited 1 time.

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maarvold

Aqua Marine

Posts: 3,093 Member Since:23/01/2011

#32 [url]

soapfoot wrote:
I just reject the idea that there's a "right way" or a "wrong way" to create art, or that one way of working has more value, inherently, than another. Many times, historical perspective is the only thing that meaningfully sorts these things out, free from human inertia, cognitive bias, and misleading senses of declinism...

...I believe it's at our own peril that we dismiss entire creative processes as invalid. Particularly those that are so clearly capable of moving an audience...

We'll never know if we did things that were truly important because it won't be known until after we're gone.  If people continue to be moved 50 years later, we did good.  I would say this is true, whether it comes to lyrics hastily scribbled on a napkin on the subway or paintings agonizingly done on your back over 50' in the air on a scaffold over the course of years.  

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jimlongo

Gold Finger

Posts: 622 Member Since:28/01/2011

#33 [url]

I "might be" kinda boring if you rely on a loop exclusively, or try to write just using one tool, or maybe not. What I find hard, and admire creative people for is how to use these tools as a contributing element in a well produced piece of music. I mean people didn't necessarily see how an oscillator and a filter would fit into pop music in the beginning, but it's pretty well embedded now isn't it.

Back to the OP, if you have ProTools checkout Transfuser, I thought it had some really nice features. IIR it had a beat cutter (? can't recall the name) that turned drum loops into really interesting things. Again, more effective if you have the skill to utilize them as part of the overall canvas.

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#37 [url]

jimlongo wrote:
I "might be" kinda boring if you rely on a loop exclusively, or try to write just using one tool, or maybe not. What I find hard, and admire creative people for is how to use these tools as a contributing element in a well produced piece of music. I mean people didn't necessarily see how an oscillator and a filter would fit into pop music in the beginning, but it's pretty well embedded now isn't it.

Back to the OP, if you have ProTools checkout Transfuser, I thought it had some really nice features. IIR it had a beat cutter (? can't recall the name) that turned drum loops into really interesting things. Again, more effective if you have the skill to utilize them as part of the overall canvas.

Exactly. Real playing combined with sequencing can be phenomenal.

 

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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silvertone

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,727 Member Since:26/01/2011

#38 [url]

morespaceecho wrote:
not all music! whatever music you grew up on is incredible! the best! life-changing!

it's everything that came after it that totally sucks. damn kids.

Some amazing kids out there... talent and creativity are endless. As is invention. 

It all outlives us.

I can't get your video to play on my iPad so I can't comment.

I can tell you throughout the 80's I did some of the most complex programming, sequencing and sampling with some of the most archaic tools. Like a Roland S50, Ensoniq Sampler and a DX7.  This while recording to tape and locking it up via smpte. The Stone Age. So there is nothing I hear today that scares me... Well, some of the stuff Jason Rudess plays on keyboards scares the hell out of me... but it's a lot of fun to master.

 

Silvertone Mastering, celebrating 28 years in business.

www.silvertonemastering.com

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trock.lucasmicrophone

Gold Finger

Posts: 343 Member Since:11/10/2013

#40 [url]

THis has been very enlightening. I get both persepctives as well. i also thought pop was a cut and paste loop driven morass of sometimes catchy melodies. but i started listening to the mixes more and more and realized there was some cool things going on in them that i never attempted, then i thought, maybe try and combine some of that as backgroudn music with my "real" instruments on top, acoustic and electric guitars etc

i agree that even if i have loops or pads or sounds, i need to knwo what fits and where to make the song catchy and good. but i also know that because i have them it makes it a whole easier (i think) vs trying to create all that from scratch

it will be an interesting time

see, i have no idea how to make a pad or loop sound good? compress them? automate a left to right sweep? layer synths? all of that i hear in some of these mixes that sound really good. i am seperating the song from the parts here. i would like to end up wiht something where the song is enhanced by the parts, and that the song in the end is well served by the choices. if i end up with an overblown mess, well that may be fun to

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