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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#41 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:43 AM

A long time ago, cows used to be free.

oops, wrong thread!

ahem...

there is a way to store solar energy in liquid form and use it whenever needed.

knowing me, you probably guessed it...  sugar cane ethanol, considered by the OPEC as their greatest enemy.

it is here, now, and anyone who wants to produce it only needs some land, a relatively modest investment and time to wait for the first crop.

no need to import it from my country... we're doing fine as it is, thank you, we don't need any price hikes due to increased demand.

over the last three decades we've been constantly increasing its production while at the same time increasing our food exports at a much larger rate and doing both mostly via increased productivity... and we still have a lot of land available.

a typical Brazilian ethanol mill is not only self-supporting after the production cycle starts, it even produces spare energy that can be fed back into the electric grid.

the byproducts are used to fertilize the land...

whatever pollutants resulting from the ethanol production are no more than the pollutants removed from the biosphere by the sugar cane growth cycle itself, and it is a carbon-neutral endeavor.

it is great engineering.

and it is here now.

no patents.

no royalties.

no new engines needed, even existing cars can be converted cheaply to run on it.

Henry Ford himself had originally intended the Model T to run on Ethanol.

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#42 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:45 AM

There are ways to produce Hydrogen,  utilising the power of the sun, If we really have the will. We managed to put a man on the moon, this is a lot easier.
 
This will tell you more about it.
 
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/01/29/sunlight-used-to-produce-hydrogen-from-water/


Up in the North, out on The Shetland Isle's, there's a happy guy that converted his car to Hydrogen Power and drives around all the time in it, people have done this all over the world.
 
If a Hydrogen Power Refuelling System was rolled out to Garages to replace Petrol Pumps though, the cost of refuelling would be comparable to the cost of Petrol, but Arabs wouldn't get the money.


I don't really understand it.

But a previous neighbour of mine who is a Physicist, has been working for some time on Research in Plasma Energy, that he says harnesses the power of the sun, and is a completely renewable self sustaining form of energy. This is where he messes about.

http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/


When I first met him, (he rented a house from my family) he was obviously a "Green" and rode 10's of miles every day to work on his bike. I saw his bike and asked what he did for a living.

He said he was a Nuclear Physicist.

I said really? Oh great, your just what I've been looking for, I need someone to mend my bike.

He and his wife used to carry their precious bikes up to their bedrooms, eating nut cutlets.

Here's a downloadable Pdf that will explain all about recreating the power of the sun endlessly.

Just one kilogram of fusion fuel produces the same amount of energy as 10,000,000 kilograms of fossil fuel.

http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/assets/Documents/Clean%20future%20web.pdf

 

But it's not just the fuel, its preserving the handing dynamics of a real drivers car, that needs to be thought of.

According to my trusty calculator, the £75,0000 Car from Brussels will do 43 Miles and about 800 yards on a single charge.
 
So that means if you want to get back to where you came from, on simply Electricity, it has an effective range on Electric Power of 21 1/2 Miles.
 
Can you see why 900 BMW and MINI vehicles have been rolled out to see what consumers really require? The Brussels car that just Sprouted, hasn't worked that out yet. 
Alas!


P

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ssltech

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,051 Member Since:22/01/2011

#43 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:46 AM

Yves, -Are you CERTAIN that there's no petrochemical fertilizers used? -I'm not at all wishing to 'refudiate', but for the sake of a more accurate energy/pollution analysis, the petrochemical side does have to be factored-in.

-Keith Andrews -If I can't fix it, I can fix it so [i]NOBODY[/i] can fix it!

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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,120 Member Since:24/01/2011

#44 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:55 AM

There will ALWAYS be petroleum in the picture...just the plastics used to make 80% of the car body cannot be made without petrol based plastic, as well as everything else involved in the manufacture, delivery, maintenance, etc...plus whatever petrochemicals are emitted,

Robbing Peter to pay Paul just to make ourselves feel good about the present doesn't really accomplish much, IMO.  I think we all need to re-define our definition of 'equilibrium' and THEN start working to the solution.  I believe this starts with 1st coming up with re-inventing the way we manufacture things...until we have the facilities to actually make these cars on a global basis, even the greatest invention in the world will take 15 years to actually hit the streets in enough numbers to make a difference.

Seems we are all looking at this backwards.

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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barry hufker

Diamond Forever

Posts: 12,110 Member Since:26/01/2011

#46 [url]

Feb 22 11 11:23 AM

Thanks KB for the link.

I keep waiting for a system on a car which uses accelerometers to change the car's vibration from driving back into electrical energy.  I don't know how efficient that would be or to what use, but it seems to me cars in STL do a lot of bouncing from poor roads and some use should be made of that.

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#47 [url]

Feb 22 11 11:25 AM


Quote : " I think we all need to re-define our definition of
'equilibrium' and THEN start working to the solution.  I believe this
starts with 1st coming up with re-inventing the way we manufacture
things...until we have the facilities to actually make these cars on a global basis."


"What´s next?" Renewable energies.


"What´s next?" Zero emissions.


"What´s next?" Recycling.


BMW Recycling and Dismantling Centre


BMW recycles methane gas!


Sustainability - What drives us. Interactive BMW Group exhibit.


BMW Clean Energy -- Responsibility with performance


BMW Wind Powered Vehicle TV Advert featuring Theo Jansen


 
 


 
angel
 
P

 



 

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#48 [url]

Feb 22 11 12:08 PM

Yves, -Are you CERTAIN that there's no petrochemical fertilizers used? -I'm not at all wishing to 'refudiate', but for the sake of a more accurate energy/pollution analysis, the petrochemical side does have to be factored-in.

-ssltech

No, I am not certain that NO petrochemical fertilizers utilized; on the contrary, I do believe that some is used.

But being that most of the sugar cane's biomass is brought back to the original land after the energy extraction phase, the need to add to that via external sources should be small, way less than for food crops.

And we're already making plastics from alcohol. After all, we're talking hydrocarbons here and Ethanol is one of them.

Anyway, the "certain" facts are:

- the typical Brazilian ethanol mill produces from 8 to 10 times the energy it requires;
- the process is carbon-neutral;
- the by-products are used back into the plantation;
- the cars pollute less when burning ethanol.

below is a photo of the exhaust pipe of my own E100 car after 40 thousand kilometers, about 80% on pure ethanol and the rest on our 'regular gas' which is actually E25:


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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,120 Member Since:24/01/2011

#49 [url]

Feb 22 11 12:35 PM

Other facts to consider

- no one eats oil...can't say the same unprocessed ethanol
- According to Cornell Univ, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than ethanol generates, therefore a substantial overall loss - we actually burn more gasoline trying to produce ethanol than if we just used gasoline in the 1st place (http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=ethanol-facts.htm&url=http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm)
- Most states that have ethanol gas are subsidizing corn farmers...the govt is helping the energy biz outbid the food biz, thus driving up the prices of both.  How long do you think that will last when oil sustains over $100/bbl for several months, and subsidies disappear from extreme budget cuts?

I think there's more to all this that the old corn vs oil fuel...there is a very delicate global economy to consider - one that is ready to implode any minute anyway...Some folks are predicting a global food shortage in the next few years anyway, so explaining to the populace that they can't have a loaf of bread because the source was used to power a car....well...you get the idea.

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#50 [url]

Feb 22 11 1:06 PM

- According to Cornell Univ, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than ethanol generates, therefore a substantial overall loss -

-wireline


yes, the linked article refers to ethanol from corn, and as I've been saying for a couple of years - and can easily be confirmed by a bit of easy googling - ethanol from sugar cane is a COMPLETELY different story and it produces from eight to ten times the energy introduced into the process, overall: from soil preparation to planting, harvesting, industrializing etc.

corn ethanol production, on the other hand, yields at best 30% more energy than the input.

DO NOT confuse corn ethanol with cane ethanol. The product itself is the same, but the process isn't.

The basic ethanol production cycle from sugar cane yields about five times the energy input; however, over the last 40 years our bio-engineers have created over 80 new sugar cane varieties designed for better yields and fit for a variety of environments, and the process itself has advanced with new technologies.
That's how we reach from eight to ten times today.

Have you heard of any research to create ethanol-ready corn in the USA? Ever? It is just the same old corn used for food...

Brazil produces ethanol fuel. the USA just burns moonshine mixed in with the gas.


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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,120 Member Since:24/01/2011

#51 [url]

Feb 22 11 1:23 PM

Corn is pretty much corn as far as I know.  One of the biggest issues though is the amount of usable farmland.  If there was such thing as 'ethanol only corn' then a significant portion of the food supply acreage would have to be re-utilized for such.  Result = less edible corn at the end user marketplace.

As you know, most places here don't have the climate to support any kind of sugarcane industry...

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#53 [url]

Feb 22 11 1:50 PM


I believe it's 7X the energy you get back.
[url]

DC

-dcollins


your link provides an interesting read, however the author is wrong when he states:

While ethanol under subsistence bagasse (sugarcane residue) conditions is theoretically capable of becoming a net energy source, Brazil nearly bankrupted themselves in a futile attempt to verify this theory


The quote is a common mistake... Brazil, along with many developing nations, nearly went bankrupt in the late 1970s and early 1980s as a result of financial instability generated by the Mexican default and the second oil crisis.  NOT because of ethanol production from sugar cane.

And as we are still producing it in rather large quantities  30 years later and are not bankrupt, there's the proof that it was not a "futile attempt".

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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,120 Member Since:24/01/2011

#55 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:01 PM

Gentlemen, it looks as though The Wild Boar Pub is about to solve several of the World's biggest problems.Thank you.

-compasspnt

Boxers or briefs?

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#56 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:09 PM

Gentlemen, it looks as though The Wild Boar Pub is about to solve several of the World's biggest problems.
Thank you.

-compasspnt

Isn't that the whole reason pubs were invented in the first place?

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johnr

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,561 Member Since:25/01/2011

#58 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:28 PM


I believe it's 7X the energy you get back.
[url]

DC

-dcollins

You can't get back more energy from reforming the chemical bonds to form water (which is what happens when hydrogen burns) than you had to put in to break them in the first place (which is what happens in electrolysis). It's a 1:1 process, minus any inefficiencies.The author of the linked article appears to agree:

In a typical situation, electrolysis takes two or more kilowatt hours of electricity worth ten cents each and converts them into one or fewer kilowatt hours of hydrogen worth less than a penny each.
...
At its very best, electrolysis introduces a staggering loss of energy that dramatically reduces the quantity and value of transformed kilowatt hours of energy.


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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#59 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:38 PM

Yes, DC meant "you put into the process seven times the energy you can get back from the process".

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,830 Member Since:26/01/2011

#60 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:40 PM

Cows eat corn.  Cows drink water, too.
Best, Marcel

-marcel

and cows produce methane, which can be used as fuel...  but it is kinda awkward to harvest from the cow.

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