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jonhodgson

Gold Finger

Posts: 341 Member Since:28/01/2011

#61 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:47 PM

One of the issues with fuel choice is the insistence of some on a "one size fits all" solution.

if 90% of daily travel requirements are less than forty miles, then maybe most people should have a car suited to that (all electric seems to make sense), and then rent when they need more.

But of course there are convenience issues, for example current rental services don't normally expect you to turn up in a car, so they have no parking facilities, whereas in this circumstance what you want to be able to do when you're taking a long journey is to drive to the rental place in your electric, leave it there (on charge ideally), and drive off in the hybrid/hydrogen/whatever.

Or it may be that if you have a hybrid which will handle 90% of your journeys on battery power alone, but has a small ICE to rechatge the battery for longer journeys (running on a biofuel) then that could also be a good solution (it might be less efficient than an alternative for longer journeys, but if you're not doing many of those then it may more than balance out).

Of course if your job involves driving long distances every day, then this won't work, but you're the exception.


In short, I don't think there's any one "best solution".






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johnr

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,561 Member Since:25/01/2011

#62 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:48 PM

Yes, DC meant "you put into the process seven times the energy you can get back from the process".

-yz


Ha. I read it backwards. I blame the ethanol.

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yz

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,831 Member Since:26/01/2011

#63 [url]

Feb 22 11 2:48 PM


As you know, most places here don't have the climate to support any kind of sugarcane industry...

-wireline

And most places there also don't produce oil.

That's why Exxon et al drill oil in other countries and bring it in.

Why not plant sugar cane elsewhere, produce the ethanol there and bring it into the USA?

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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,123 Member Since:24/01/2011

#64 [url]

Feb 22 11 3:01 PM

Same as why we import tons of sugar....food.

It also breaks down to this, really: there is no sustainable market for ethanol (regardless of what kind) fueled vehicles.  Tax incentives, etc, just don't work, as the typical buyer is just not interested.  There are a few propane powered commercial trucks out this way, but not enough to be statistically significant.

Doesn't matter what it is, regardless of how well it might work in one or two other places - if we don't want it, we ain't buying it.  And unless we buy it, what's the point of it?  All electric and hybrids are already available for those who choose to have one; biofuel ready engines are already on the market for those who choose to have them...this is not new.

Convincing the vast majority of consumers is not as easy as convincing a couple of guys on the internet.   

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#66 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:01 PM

I Know the Answer, Everyone needs to use the Bus.

This one will be with you in California during late 2011.



BAE Systems and Ballard to jointly develop hydrogen fuel cell bus

(01.04.2010)

In a joined effort, BAE-Systems and Ballard plan to develop a fuel cell bus which is scheduled for delivery in December 2011 for the Southern California Regional Transit Agency. The project is to demonstrate the commercial feasibility of the fuel cell technology and is funded by the U.S. Federal Transit Administration, California Calstart, California Air Resource Board, and California South Coast Air Quality Management District.

The bus developed under the program will use a fuel cell module supplied by Ballard Power Systems as the main power plant, combined with BAE Systems’ “HybriDrive” propulsion and power management system, used by transit agencies across the US, Canada and in the UK.

The 40-foot (approx. 12 m) long demonstration transit bus manufactured by California-based El Dorado National will use an advanced lithium-ion-based energy storage system with increased battery life and reduced vehicle weight.
 

angel

PP
 

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#67 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:14 PM

Whilst over in Norway..



 


 

Ballard Fuel Cell Modules To Power Fleet of Clean Energy

 

Transit Buses in Norway
 

Feb 15, 2011 
 

Ballard Power Systems (TSX: BLD) (NASDAQ: BLDP) announced that it has entered into a contract for the supply of fuel cell power modules to power five zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell buses operated by the HyNor Oslo Buss group, to service the greater Oslo area.
"This contract is a further sign of the growth potential that clean fuel cell power has in the larger global transit bus marketplace, as transit agencies implement environmental improvements," said Michael Goldstein, Ballard's Chief Commercial Officer. "And, it is an important step in the execution of our strategy toward commercialization in the short-term."
 
Under the contract announced by Ballard, Belgian coach manufacturer Van Hool NV has contracted with Ballard - following a competitive bidding process - to use the company's FCvelocity(R) fuel cell module in the buses it will provide to the HyNor Oslo Buss group, comprised of the Ruter transit agency, Akershus County Administration, Oslo Municipality and Zero, an environmental organization. Siemens will also be a participant in the project, providing electric drive systems that will draw power from the Ballard fuel cell modules. Increased volumes of fuel cell-powered buses are expected to support cost and price reductions through scale economies, enabling fuel cell solutions to compete effectively with incumbent transit technologies.
 

Leopold Van Hool, Managing Director of Van Hool NV added, "We are very pleased to work with Ballard on the Oslo fuel cell buses. Ballard's fuel cell modules are compact, deliver the high performance required for thirteen meter buses and offer the best warranty in
the industry."

The zero-emission 13-meter (43-foot) fuel cell buses will be put into regular passenger service by the end of 2011 and will be fueled by clean hydrogen produced locally at the Rosenholm bus depot. Hydrogen will be generated through electrolysis of water, using electrical energy from renewable sources. As a result, the Oslo bus fleet will reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions by 100% on a well-to-wheels basis, compared to diesel or diesel hybrid alternatives, eliminating as much as 4,000 tons of CO2 over the first five-years of use.
 
Over that same period, the fleet is expected to operate approximately 20,000 hours, the equivalent of 450,000 kilometers (280,000 miles) per bus. The fleet will continue operating up to ten years, with the Ruter transit agency having an option to purchase as many as five additional buses during that time.
 

Mr. Konrad Ove Kjolstad, Contracts Manager for Ruter transit agency said "Ruter has been very encouraged by the success of the BC Transit Whistler fleet and we look forward to taking advantage of the technology available in Ballard's fuel cell modules."
Project funding will be provided by Norwegian state and municipal governments as well as the European Union's Joint Technology Initiative (JTI). The JTI will accelerate development and deployment of clean technologies, including hydrogen and fuel cell-based energy systems and component technologies, helping the European Union achieve aggressive GHG reduction targets.
 

angelangel

P

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#68 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:17 PM

Eighteen New Hydrogen Refuelling Stations in 2009, Worldwide  (20.03.2010) 
In 2009, 18 new hydrogen refuelling stations opened worldwide, increasing the total number to 206. This is the result of the second annual assessment by H2stations.org, a website of the hydrogen and fuel-cell internet portal of TÜV SÜD and Ludwig-Bölkow-Systemtechnik (LBST). Another 108 refuelling stations are currently in the planning stage throughout the world. 

In their hydrogen and fuel-cell portal, TÜV SÜD and LBST offer extensive information and services for interested members of the public and professional users. "The H2stations.org website (www.H2stations.org) features interactive maps showing all hydrogen refuelling stations currently in operation or planned worldwide", says Matthias Altmann, Ludwig-Bölkow-Systemtechnik. The database is continuously updated and includes detailed information about every single refuelling station. "In 2009, the map of Germany showed a total of 25 hydrogen refuelling stations, with another 10 stations to be added soon", explains Altmann. Nine new refuelling stations were opened last year throughout Europe including Germany, and eight in North America – a total of 70 hydrogen refuelling stations in Europe and 92 in North America according to the information available to LBST. As stated by Altmann, the current rise in hydrogen fuel stations and further expansion plans are a clear signal that the industry is preparing for the market launch of hydrogen/fuel-cell vehicles.
 
 
angel
 
P

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#69 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:24 PM

High-capacity logistics with hydrogen
 
(28.01.2010)


Vision Industries presents “Zero Emission Tyrano” drive-train – Plug-in electric/hydrogen fuel cell hybrid truck – FedEx Freight and Port of LA to perform test 

In an agreement late in 2009, Vision Industries expressed the intention to configure a FedEx Freight tractor with their hydrogen/electric hybrid drive train named “Tyrano”. The concept combines the superior acceleration of a battery powered electric vehicle with the extended range provided by a hydrogen fuel cell. The reconfigured vehicle will be tested for one year to evaluate its operational suitability.

The Port of Los Angeles considers testing heavy-duty (“Class 8”) big-rigs of Vision Industries for evaluating their suitability for short and medium distance cargo-hauling (“drayage”) operations, and other similar applications. For them, zero emission vehicles will become necessary for achieving the goals for the transportation and port sectors under California’s AB32 greenhouse gas reduction legislation and the City’s GreenLA initiative.

According to Vision Industries, a combination of a hydrogen fuel cell and lithium batteries may result in a potential operating range of up to 400 miles (about 645 km).
 
For the time being, hydrogen-powered fuel cell systems for heavy-duty transport applications have not been thought suitable for the logistics sector.
 
 
angel
 
P

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peterpoyser

Platinum Blonde

Posts: 1,234 Member Since:10/02/2011

#72 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:39 PM

USA: Toyota to expand Fuel Cell Vehicle Demonstration Program

(22.01.2010)

Toyota Motor Sales and Toyota Motor Manufacturing and Engineering North America, both USA, have expanded their fuel cell vehicle program. More than 100 Toyota Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicles Advanced (FCHV-adv) will participate in a three year nationwide demonstration program. The vehicles will be placed with universities, private companies and government agencies at first in California and New York. The primary goal of the demonstration program expansion is to accelerate hydrogen infrastructure development and demonstrate reliability and performance of the fuel cell technologies prior to the planned market introduction in 2015.

Since 2002 Toyota has tested fuel cell hybrid vehicles in the U.S. and Japan. The FCHV-adv was introduced in 2008 with an estimated range increase of more than 150% over the first generation FCHV.

angel

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wireline

Aqua Marine

Posts: 4,123 Member Since:24/01/2011

#73 [url]

Feb 22 11 4:56 PM

Everyone just go back to riding horses...when it finally breaks down for good, sell the carcass to Jack in the Box.   Its a win-win arrangement.

Amish Motors is starting to look pretty sweet.  Low maintenance, self replicating, lasts 20 years, lots of accessories, and probably smarter than many of its drivers.

Ken Morgan

Please...Give It A Rest

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mike cleaver

Silverado

Posts: 196 Member Since:26/01/2011

#75 [url]

Feb 22 11 5:30 PM

Is this too simple a concept?
Most personal vehicles use only two of the four wheels to propel the vehicle.
What about using the other two to generate power and replenish the batteries?
It wouldn't be 100 per cent efficient but it could be a start.

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kb s1

Aqua Marine

Posts: 2,588 Member Since:18/01/2011

#76 [url]

Feb 22 11 5:46 PM

Is this too simple a concept?Most personal vehicles use only two of the four wheels to propel the vehicle.What about using the other two to generate power and replenish the batteries?It wouldn't be 100 per cent efficient but it could be a start.

-mike_cleaver

Mike, that is essentially how many hybrid vehicles will work.

But, you must remember the point made on several occasions in this thread.
You Cannot Get More Back than You Put IN.

The recharge will come under braking conditions.
Every car charges the electrical components when driving through the alternator (Some new cars aside such as BMW's M3 which only charges under braking).

If you Fully Charged a drivetrain through the undriven wheels you would place so much strain on the driven wheels/drivetrain that you would lose more than gain.

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jonhodgson

Gold Finger

Posts: 341 Member Since:28/01/2011

#77 [url]

Feb 22 11 5:53 PM

Is this too simple a concept?
Most personal vehicles use only two of the four wheels to propel the vehicle.
What about using the other two to generate power and replenish the batteries?
It wouldn't be 100 per cent efficient but it could be a start.

-mike_cleaver


You can't escape the laws of thermodynamics


it takes energy to turn a generator, that energy is in excess of what it takes to move the vehicle down the road.


You can only get "free" energy when it would otherwise be lost, for example normal brakes turn energy into heat, so you can instead turn it into electricity.

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barry hufker

Diamond Forever

Posts: 12,206 Member Since:26/01/2011

#78 [url]

Feb 22 11 5:54 PM

Cows eat corn.  Cows drink water, too.
Best, Marcel

-marcel

By nature, cows don't eat corn.  They eat grass.  And that's why we feed them antibiotics -- because they're not being fed grass.

Boxers or Briefs?  The answer should always be "Either or Neither".

Barry


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LeforaGuest

New Forum Friend

Posts: 0 Member Since:29/06/2017

#79 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:31 PM

At some point energy is expended compressing the air, no?

-johnwhynot


No. You just put a really big scoop in front. The air comes into the scoop, is forced into a smaller tube, then is forced through an even smaller outlet.

You have to be going really fast, maybe downhill, as well as leaning forward.

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LeforaGuest

New Forum Friend

Posts: 0 Member Since:29/06/2017

#80 [url]

Feb 22 11 10:35 PM


You can't escape the laws of thermodynamics

You can only get "free" energy when it would otherwise be lost, for example normal brakes turn energy into heat, so you can instead turn it into electricity.

-jonhodgson

I think you have failed to take into account friends that one might talk into pushing really fast to get one going.

It's not free energy, sure, but it's cheap, and all laws are maintained.

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